The use of limiters in modern metal....

[Torniojaws]

Impossible.

Then how come the wave extracted from the CD will peak beyond 0 dB when opened in an audio editor

 

[greyskull]

Try putting a limiter, or if you have it/ can get it a timeworks limiter, and put it on the drum bus ( if you assigned them to one) just barely pull the threshold down so its not killing your dynamics, should help for the overall level..

If not, try the same limiters on the voices of the kit you find are getting lost, strange but it works for me!!..

Oh yeah, if possible, monitor with some sort of limiter on at all times, so that whenyou mix, you know what the mastering process will do to it.

Another thing i found for home brew mastering, is that running several compressors and limiters together, all at slightly milder settings, can help increase percieved loudness, without squashing the hell out of your mix.

i.e i run,
req -> r comp -> c4 ->ozone -> timeworks master comp -> L2

hope this helps

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Then how come the wave extracted from the CD will peak beyond 0 dB when opened in an audio editor

Actually it won't peak beyond 0db but AT 0db, which is the maximum value. Can't get over that, that's the ceiling

 

[nwright]

Actually it won't peak beyond 0db but AT 0db, which is the maximum value. Can't get over that, that's the ceiling

When I was mixing my bands EP, I threw in a few reference CD's that had a lot of limiting and some of them like God Forbid's newest, Chimaira's latest and one other I can't remember snap and crackle as much as a bowl of Rice Krispies. On my early mixes, I'd use the L2 and listen back and the peaks would be between +1.0 to +1.5 using a setting like Ether suggested (-5 thresh, 0 output).

For me, I tried to use multi band compression to smash it up and then the L2 after running Ozone. I presonally think the Ozone limiter doesn't sound as "grainy" or "crispy" as the L2, but for my mixes and my band's sound, that added grainy/crispiness added a more "urgent" sound to the recordings that made them come alive, so I left it in.

I know for me I think in absolutes as to what should be ran in my mixes, because I want a competitive product in terms of modern techniques, and I'm a noob. But, what I also found when doing my bands EP is that I can use these tools to help shape the feeling of the songs as much as the sound. And, running a smashed to the hilt and brickwalled mix just seemed to make our tracks come alive and fit the mood or feeling we were trying to convey.

 

[Torniojaws]

Digital distortion is evil.

 

[ThomasT]

I think this is impossible too!

The highest values on each phase mark the 0dB point. So it should be impossible to go over 0dB, because there are no more values available beyond the 0dB point.

Not the mathematical sample value...but the resulting analog signal after DAC.

1.) (works only for high frequencies) If the actual wave-peak is between two samples.

2.) If the waveform ist not symmetric you can add a DC-Offset to use the whole value-range.

But personally I don't like the overcompressed sound. Although very loud mastered but good sounding CDs exist. E.g. Amon Amarth.

 

[Niels]

Not the mathematical sample value...but the resulting analog signal after DAC.

1.) (works only for high frequencies) If the actual wave-peak is between two samples.

2.) If the waveform ist not symmetric you can add a DC-Offset to use the whole value-range.

Perhaps this is a misunderstanding. I only wanted to point out that I think it's impossible to load a track from a CD (in red book standard) into your wave-editor(eg WaveLab) and the meters show a level above the 0dB point.(No Master FX, Master Level at 0dB)

1.)If the actual wave-peak is between two samples, it will not be recognized.(Not talking about oversampling and adapted values)

2.)Of course you can add a DC-offset, but it won't be possible to cross the 0dB line.

Example: Load a song into WaveLab, choose "Level" -> "Change Level" and add some dB to the wave file. Master Level 0dB, no PlugIns. All you get is digital clipping and a higher RMS level, but the meter in the Mastersection won't be higher than 0dB.

Of course the resulting analog signal can be above 0db after(!) DAC, but I guess that's not what we're talking about...

 

[stringyo]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I'm going to check out that Timeworks plug-in.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

I'm not a huge fan of "smash the crap out of it" mastering. Unfortunately, even after lengthy explanations as to why hyper compression isn't such a great idea, clients still ask for the disc to be 'as loud as possible," or just give blank stares.
I've yet to meet a client who asked for "quieter mastering to preserve the dynamics." So, to keep 'em coming in, loud is the order of the day.

I do notice a major difference, between "reasonably loud" and "loud as fuck." Usually the kick drum suffers the most.... even after pre-emphasising it during mixdown. It just seems to die.

If anyone has any tips on avoiding this, I'd really appreciate the help.

-0z-

 

[Matt Crooks]

I've yet to meet a client who asked for "quieter mastering to preserve the dynamics." So, to keep 'em coming in, loud is the order of the day.

The last album I did with my own (now former) band, I did exactally this. I told the ME that I did not want to squash the hell out of it. I wanted it loud, but not as loud as possible. We used several discs for reference, and made sure that mine was not the quietest one. As long as it wasn't the quietest, it was loud enough. I think we used "Wake of Magellian", "Something Wicked this way Comes" and "Low" as our reference discs.

Even zoomed out pretty far, the waveforms look like wave forms, not blocks

For the fun of it, we compared it to "Heaven and Hell" (my fav. disc of all time), and we were noticeably louder

 

[Glenn Fricker]

I'm in total agreement with you. I don't master my own stuff very loud as well.

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

I'm usually aiming for around -10db RMS. What about you ?

 

[Wadi]

I tried for -10db rms but most often I stayed with -12db. My mix is that bad...

 

[ReliXKeepeR]

The trick for keeping the drums in a metal mix is to brutally CLIP the waveform (@ 0 dB of course, nothing over) during mastering, i.e shave of the peaks instead of pushing them down. I know it sounds funny, but it is done by mastering engineers everywhere to keep the punch of the drums. It seems that many ME's clip their external converters to achieve this; but there's a software plug that does it pretty good: Sonic Timeworks Mastering Compressor. When it comes to metal mastering, L2 & L3 can go fxxk themselves. I made an audio test at the Gearslutz forum, comparing L2, L3 and Timeworks. My post + the files is here: http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?p=657552#post657552

Please note that all clips are pushed a little too hard.

Well, i dont post there, so i will write you here

First, i am big fan of your work and Underworld is great!

And now about the examples.
Can't you hear the clipping in the Timeworks example??
about 38 sec is obvious. 2 and 3 sec too....

 

[A Gruesome Discovery]

I tried for -10db rms but most often I stayed with -12db. My mix is that bad...

I usually end up around -12db too; I like to use Carcass' Heartwork (among other things) as a reference, which happens to be in that general area. More than that and the stereo image starts to collapse.

 

[Nitronium Blood]

Can you guys like, simplyfy this stuff for me?

Limiting is where someone makes a prefect mix super loud, but not over 0db so that there isn't any clipping. Correct?

 

[kev]

Can you guys like, simplyfy this stuff for me?

Limiting is where someone makes a prefect mix super loud, but not over 0db so that there isn't any clipping. Correct?

yes its supposed to be, but when it boosts i guess if anything is even slightly unbalenced in the mix then it highlights to hell, so if your kick is slightly low and guitars slightly loud thats the end of the kick haha. This is my experience tho. And either that or the damn thing victimises snare drums for a past time

 

[Torniojaws]

Limiting is where someone makes a prefect mix super loud, but not over 0db so that there isn't any clipping. Correct?

It used to be like that. Nowadays it's more like "someone makes a super loud complete mix go way beyond healthy to sound even louder at the expense of making it sound very dull and sometimes crackle like rice & crispies."

 

[Glenn Fricker]

That was one great thing about the vynil era: Over-limiting the mix was physically impossible. I still like to throw Sad Wings, No Rest for the Wicked, & the first Sanctuary album on the ol' turntable for a little change of pace.

-0z-

 

[Where She Wept]

Funny, i can't tell if there is real difference between the clips, but i just finished 8 hrs of EMO music, so i think my ears are shot. Could this explain why some records sound so thin and funny? they just got butchered in the mastering process?