Thinking about giving Cubase a try

[AD Chaos]

Hello all,

I've been trying to migrate from Sonar into something else lately, tried Reaper and while that program is incredibly light and intuitive, it lacks integrated notation/scoring, which for me is really important.

I've been looking other options, Cubase notation window seems like a nice one:


Do you guys recommend Cubase over any other option?
I'm looking for a PC DAW with these 3 specific things in mind:

- Lightness in computer resources (regardless of wether I'm using a new or and older machine), and intuitiveness
- A great notation implementation
- Stability in 32/64bit plugin loading, using the x64 install of the DAW


I'm thinking of getting the lightest version (Elements) and see how it goes from there.
Do I get full functionality with it, or are there fundamental differences with the other two versions (Artist and Full), aside from 3rd party libraries or plugins?

I'm not really interested in getting a ton of plugins or virtual instruments I wouldn't even use, the hope is the ones I already use and know will suffice, so I may not even upgrade to a bigger version at all, if it's not necessary.
Or would I be missing on something important?


Thanks much for your opinions

 

[HOFX]

I think there are some notation packages that you can Rewire into Reaper.

I see you've already gone down this path from an earlier thread, looking at Notion.

 

[AD Chaos]

Indeed you're right, I wanted to use Notion 4 inside Reaper, but couldn't make them function together with ReWire. I wrote to the Presonus guys about it, their answer was basically 'buy our Studio One, version 5 is made for it' :Smug: (buy our Studio One AND Notion 5).

The settings in Notion are kind of a PITA to get working properly and there's no evidence anywhere that version 5 is better or worse on that regard (specifically along with Reaper), at least not yet. I probably would have to wait a looong time for reviews on how the two would get along (and the bulk of users at the Reaper forum don't even seem much interested in working with notation, anyway).

I'm thinking about giving Cubase a go since it seems to be the choice for some of the seasoned guys here. I'm assuming the 32-64 VST compatibility to be the best out there (you know, since Steinberg invented the thing). I'm still curious to know if the program is as bulky as other major DAWs that include a lot of stuff I wouldn't even use. I was just reading that the Score Editor on Cubase is ''streamlined'' even for the middle 'Artist' version.. Still, no way I'd go for their unlimited version just to try it out and see if it has what I want.

 

[UncleBob]

Did you try some kind of virtual midi cables?

 

[AD Chaos]

Why don't you try Studio One instead then, it would be my first choice after Reaper, there's the free version to try out, not sure how crippled it is.

Because for Studio One + Notion 5 I'd be paying $550 essentially just to get a working ReWire, instead of having scoring directly inside the DAW, and the one in Cubase seems to be better for using it alongside a sequence anyway.
Notion is more of a standalone program (quite good in that regard, actually).

That, and I still would have to wait for user reviews to see if those 2 programs (Studio One and Notion 5) even work together as good as it is advertised, since Notion 5 just came out. At least from the pics, it looks extremely similar to version 4, only more expensive. Even the full version of Cubase would be cheaper than that. Reading further it seems the basic version of Cubase doesn't even have scoring could be wrong, though.

 

[PD-Baraka]

Studio One is just a great program, I was on cubase for 10 years and studio one seems like home, just a bit better, it's taste ofc, I don't use notation so I can't comment on that, but the mastering and melodyne features made me switch, it did turn out to be a better program, for me personally. Studio One is underrated IMO. Good luck with your search

 

[HOFX]

Isn't Studio One programmed by ex-Cubase founding employees?

 

[AD Chaos]

Studio One is just a great program, I was on cubase for 10 years and studio one seems like home, just a bit better, it's taste ofc, I don't use notation so I can't comment on that, but the mastering and melodyne features made me switch, it did turn out to be a better program, for me personally. Studio One is underrated IMO. Good luck with your search

Thanks for the tip and the good wishes

Did you try some kind of virtual midi cables?

No, haven't tried that yet.
I already downloaded the free version of LoopBe to try and see if it helps with getting the ReWire thing sorted in Reaper. Thanks for the tip!

 

[rvs0002]

Studio One is just a great program, I was on cubase for 10 years and studio one seems like home, just a bit better, it's taste ofc, I don't use notation so I can't comment on that, but the mastering and melodyne features made me switch, it did turn out to be a better program, for me personally. Studio One is underrated IMO. Good luck with your search

+1000

Same scenario for me, only even longer with Cubase. Love Studio One 2.

 

[AD Chaos]

What do you guys mean by 'better'?

The more I read and see videos about Cubase's MIDI Notation editor the harder I'm GASing for the full version; I'm intending to use the DAW mostly as a compositional tool, and I happen to rely on scores a lot (although I'd like to mix on it as well, but that's second on the list):

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/661068-best-daw-composition.html

Is it better workflow, added features, the plugins, 3rd party add ons on Studio One?





*just remembered I have a couple of LE versions lying around somewhere from buying other things, going to give Cubase a try anyway

 

[PD-Baraka]

What do you guys mean by 'better'?

The more I read and see videos about Cubase's MIDI Notation editor the harder I'm GASing for the full version; I'm intending to use the DAW mostly as a compositional tool (although I'd like to mix on it as well, but that's second on the list):

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/661068-best-daw-composition.html

Is it better workflow, added features, the plugins, 3rd party add ons on Studio One?





*just remembered I have a couple of LE versions lying around somewhere from buying other things, going to give Cubase a try anyway

I allways that a DAW is very personal, everybody likes something different.
Studio One 2 for is about workflow, eveything is right in front, though Cubase has come after most of it.
Still the mastering and totally Integrated Melodyne are good selling points, But to me its the layout.

Cubase is a solid program, i used it for a long time with no complaints, but one has to choose, Studio One is just simpler in the good way.

Its also half the Price of Cubase.

Maybe Cubase is for you, you never know until you tried it.

The Control Room in cubase is nice and the darker more contrasted GUI i like too, but in the end, S1 just get me there faster, i never consulted the manual like i did in Cubase, that is a selling point to me, things being inspirational in intuitive.


I think both have a demo or free version, i know S1 have atleast.


Please report back on your findings, could be cool to know what you settled on

 

[AD Chaos]

THanks! I'm saving up for changing the PC first right now so it could be a while


Then again Sonar keeps me wanting to jump out the window so often, I might change from DAW sooner

 

[abt]

Having done extensive classical scoring including scores for film an television I can tell you that there is no good score editor daw integration on the market. Trust me, I've tried them all and they just suck.

The only way I can work is get as much of the score done in Sibelius then export the MIDI to Pro Tools. From there I do all the humanizing, mixing etc. It's a total pain in the ass if you need to make major changed to the score later or if when your scoring you need to be writing with live instrument as well or use a VI that can only run in Pro Tools.

Rewire is pretty horrible. I've used it a lot and it's not a great workflow.

 

[JeffTD]

Cubase is unbeatable for MIDI work IMO.

 

[AD Chaos]

Cubase is unbeatable for MIDI work IMO.

This seems to be the consensus. Apparently Hans Zimmer and many major film guys use Cubase as their DAW of choice. The 'visual quantizing' features (showing an aligned score while not having to align the actual MIDI notes to the grid) seem incredibly practical and musical to me.

Having done extensive classical scoring including scores for film an television I can tell you that there is no good score editor daw integration on the market. Trust me, I've tried them all and they just suck.

The only way I can work is get as much of the score done in Sibelius then export the MIDI to Pro Tools. From there I do all the humanizing, mixing etc. It's a total pain in the ass if you need to make major changed to the score later or if when your scoring you need to be writing with live instrument as well or use a VI that can only run in Pro Tools.

Rewire is pretty horrible. I've used it a lot and it's not a great workflow.

Have you used Cubase and Logic, I assume? Apparently PT is not a very good choice for compositional midi work..

I agree 100% on the ReWire thing, I've had bad experiences with it in the past. Notion is a really efficient way to write scores imo (with a mouse/kb, anyway) but the ReWire part so far, I haven't been able to make it work, and it would not surprise me if it ends up crashing, freezing, etc, anyway.


As a side note, I usually play the parts on a controller, but the score display on Sonar forces me to quantize everything to the grid, or else the visual result is completely unreadable
From what I've seen they managed to make the staff view worse in the latest X3 version instead of improving on it (from Sonar 8 which is what I use) and the program is reportedly bulkier for the machine (although the many bugs they had from the GUI change in X1 have been sorted out, apparently).

 

[abt]

This seems to be the consensus. Apparently Hans Zimmer and many major film guys use Cubase as their DAW of choice. The 'visual quantizing' features (showing an aligned score while not having to align the actual MIDI notes to the grid) seem incredibly practical and musical to me.

In my experience most of the big guys aren't even using a daw at all, just Sibelius or Finale or even just pen and paper then hitting the scoring stage. Having said that more and more big productions aren't even using real instruments any more just eastwest and a lot of guys are required to print stems or even produce the final result so its a lot of work but cheaper and easier for the producer.

Have you used Cubase and Logic, I assume? Apparently PT is not a very good choice for compositional midi work..

Yes, to Cubase anyway. Not logic, I've used it but not really for scoring. Pro Tools is no where near as bad as people make out. I guess it depends how you use it. I'll get to that in a minute.

I agree 100% on the ReWire thing, I've had bad experiences with it in the past. Notion is a really efficient way to write scores imo (with a mouse/kb, anyway) but the ReWire part so far, I haven't been able to make it work, and it would not surprise me if it ends up crashing, freezing, etc, anyway.

Even if you can get rewire to work efficiently and make it stable it totally sucks for scoring. The major deal breaker for me is just say you have a song that has a nice string intro, you score it in Sibelius the rewire to you daw. You do a bunch of other stuff in the daw lets say an acoustic guitar part or whatever, you then want the strings to come back in from Sibelius. Trust me, getting the Sibelius to hit in the right spot if fucking horrible, you'll waste ten minutes trying to create an odd time bar in front of where you it to come it just to get it right, only to change something later in either the daw or Sibelius and screw it all up again. Rewire doesn't really do any syncing other than where the play head is. Any changes to the timeline have to be made in both the score editing realm and the daw realm. It sounds trivial, and sometimes it is, but most of the time its a real pain in the balls.

I know Notion pretty well. Its a good score editor. I won't into details on how I stated using it or why I stopped.

As a side note, I usually play the parts on a controller, but the score display on Sonar forces me to quantize everything to the grid, or else the visual result is completely unreadable

And here you've hit the nail on the head. Score editors do a great job of reading and interpreting expression and tempo markings. They essentially hide the midi from you because it's visually unreadable.
DAWs don't. They read midi as simply data that tells it what to play and when to play it (and of course how loud, velocity, etc). When a daw tries to show this as something readable, unless everything is a complete note, quantized to the grid then it looks like shit.

DAW MIDI editing and score editing are completely incompatible in my opinion and for this reason I typically treat them as two separate entities.

So for me I try to get as much of the score as I can done in Sibelius and leave everything on the grid. I then have two different approaches to make it musical, I usually use both in a project. For the most part try to nail the markings so they play the way I want, then I export the midi file to Pro Tools. All those markings should now be in the midi velocity automation lane. From here I can easily tweak them using the usual automation tools. I then go back though the score and start pushing midi off the grid to make it more human. At this stage I don't want to go back to the score editor at all if I can help it. If notes need changing in the score from here on out I'll usually do it just in the MIDI editor.

I should add that I try to pick my VIs before doing to much automation in the daw because it can change quiet a lot from instrument to instrument.

 

[cfh11]

Cubase is unbeatable for MIDI work IMO.

yup. havent used anything else that comes close IMO. really glad that my steinberg interface came with a copy of cubase.

 

[Kazrog]

Cubase is unbeatable for MIDI work IMO.

As a developer, I have to test in everything and I can honestly say that the only thing that comes close to Cubase is Logic as far as deep MIDI. Cubase is a great DAW (still my main platform), and they offer a trial these days, nothing to lose.

I love Studio One, though, and I'm curious to see how it evolves over time. It's still a young DAW with a lot of room to grow, so it won't have as much in the way of deep MIDI as Cubase (at least not yet in v2.)

 

[AD Chaos]

they offer a trial these days, nothing to lose.

Alas, I don't have the eLicenser, so I'm stuck with the Elements trial which seems to be quite crippled

I know Notion pretty well. Its a good score editor. I won't into details on how I stated using it or why I stopped.

Could you please elaborate? I think it's a great program for inserting the notes manually, or even through step record.

I should add that I try to pick my VIs before doing to much automation in the daw because it can change quiet a lot from instrument to instrument.

I'm assuming you insert the CC# changes later in PT? Or does your Sibelius export them (ie long bows to staccatto on strings) and you adjust them to the VI on the DAW afterwards?

How do you transcribe all the expression nuances you get from Sibelius?.. Sounds quite consuming

 

[aortizjr]

There is actually quite a bit you are missing from Cubase Elements.

http://www.steinberg.net/fileadmin/...ubase_7/Downloads/Cubase_Comparison_Chart.pdf

Now which ones are important to you is debatable, but it looks like the biggest one is going to be the score editor.

I think Cubase is an excellent DAW and the editing and MIDI capabilities are huge. I also use Pro Tools and Reaper mainly so I can work with other engineers more easily. But my main choice is still Cubase.

The Drum Midi editor is still the best I have ever seen. The Arranger Track I use with just about everything. Tempo/Musical Mode time stretching is invaluable when writing/pre-production. Tempo detection has been huge for me lately when mixing and producing/arranging.

I can't even remember how I used to work without Control Room... oh wait... f'n pro tools. Oh and VST Connect allow me to work with guys in other states which I do semi-regularly. Easy track export and FLAC support is also awesome. The vocal tuning is nearly essential.

I also have been working with some guys using Cubasis and that integration has been really handy. Or I will even do some basic scratch-padding in my office with Cubasis and have it ready to roll in Cubase easily. Even the built-in plugins are totally usable. I use quite a lot of them during tracking and mixing.

Compared to Studio One, I didn't like it. Just too young of a DAW even though I did like the integrated mastering and mixing workflow. But it just didn't have all the features I really needed for all the editing and arranging I do.

But it does have a pretty steep learning curve IMO and I have been using it now for 10 years and I feel like I still am barely scratching the surface (chord mode/finder/arranger thing, midi performance enhancers, scoring, movie scoring, groove agent, loopmash, etc.).