This is really funny

[Malergion]

(CNN) -- The Vatican will embark on a sweeping new legal strategy Monday in responding to allegations of sex abuse in the United States, CNN has learned.

Responding to a Louisville, Kentucky, lawsuit that seeks to depose top Vatican officials -- including Pope Benedict XVI -- the Holy See plans to file a motion Monday denying that the church issued a document mandating secrecy in the face of abuse allegations, as many victims allege, according to a Vatican attorney.

The Vatican's motion also will argue that bishops are not employees of the Holy See, exempting the Vatican from legal culpability in cases of alleged abuse in the U.S., said Jeffrey Lena, the Vatican's U.S.-based attorney.

Whether or not the Vatican succeeds in getting the Louisville case dismissed based on those arguments will likely have implications for church abuse lawsuits across the country -- including two other suits that target the Vatican -- at a time when allegations of abuse and cover-up are dogging the church worldwide.

Much of the litigation against the church has argued that a 1962 document -- called crimen sollicitationis in Latin, which means "crimes of solicitation" -- barred church officials from contacting civil authorities with allegations of sex abuse against the church.

Abuse victims and their attorneys have said the document is evidence of a broader church culture of secrecy and cover-up in responding to abuse allegations.

For the first time, the Vatican on Monday will challenge those charges.

"Contrary to what some plaintiffs' attorneys have contended, crimen did not mandate bishops to keep silent about sexual abuse in their dioceses," Lena said. "That is important, because many Catholics, in particular, have been saddened by the idea that the laws of their church would prevent compliance with the law, and it simply is not true."

The 1962 document primarily refers to cases involving confession. If a priest tries to solicit sex from someone who is trying to give their confession, it says, the allegation against the priest should be "pursued in a most secretive way ... under penalty of excommunication."

Church leaders argue the document had no bearing on civil or criminal law and was superseded by the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which "treats the sexual abuse of a minor (and solicitation of a penitent by confessor) as criminal behavior, which may be punished by dismissal from the clerical state."

The Vatican also plans to argue Monday for the first time that bishops are not employees of the Vatican, as a handful of U.S. lawsuits against the Holy See allege.

"We will respectfully submit that this is a fallacious theory," Lena said. "The Holy See, or the Pope, does not 'employ' bishops in the United States."

The church argues that bishops act with local autonomy in their respective dioceses.

The Louisville case was filed in 2004 by three men who allege that they were victims of priest abuse as children and who are seeking damages from the Vatican.

The men's attorney, William McMurry, did not return a call to his office on Sunday night. He is seeking to interview top Vatican officials, including the pope, in the case.

 

[theoden236]

Religion is a whore!

 

[Dead_Lioness]

Religion is dumb.

 

[vikk]

unless you're going to set fire in a church, or really do something about, shut up. the whole "church-is-evil" thing is old, we know, so what? yeah i feel like ranting

 

[Brooks]

Hah. I was just gonna say that this is just going to turn into a big anti-religion circle jerk. Preaching to the deconverted.


Reminds me of a funny thing that happened to me the other night.

I usually try to avoid religious debates in public, as they almost never get anywhere, but I was at the Toronado bar in SF and I met this guy, a friend of one of my other really anti-theistic friend. However the conversation got there, I don't recall, but he eventually told me that he was a Christian.

So I asked him "so, you believe in the virgin birth?" He said no.
So... "you believe Jesus died on the cross and resurrected to heaven three days later?" He said no.

The Bible, to him was a series of allegories, good stories and ways to live your life. To this, essentially, I agree (though there are ton of not-so-good stories and ways to live life, but I digress).

So I came back at him, not to tell him that his beliefs come from the ramblings of illiterate desert nomads, not to tell hm that the Bible is an abridged and carefully edited tool of propaganda... but what I said to him was that based on what he told me, he was not a Christian. This made him mad.

My point being, that if you don't believe in the virgin birth, and you don't belief in Jesus' resurrection, you've missed the entire mark. Those are the BIG ONES. Those are the undeniable Christian precepts; there are a lot of 'interpretable' messages in the Bible, as the many different schools of Christianity teach and preach. But those two presuppositions are essential to living life as a Christian. I told him he was not a Christian. This made him mad.

If our mutual friend hadn't gotten in the way, he might have hit me. That wouldn't have been very Christian of him, either.

 

[Malergion]

I didn't post this to start an argument about theology. It was more of a "look at how corrupt this organization obviously is." I find such blatant corruption amusing due to the rationalizations people make to allow it.

 

[Dead Winter]

Hah. I was just gonna say that this is just going to turn into a big anti-religion circle jerk. Preaching to the deconverted.


Reminds me of a funny thing that happened to me the other night.

I usually try to avoid religious debates in public, as they almost never get anywhere, but I was at the Toronado bar in SF and I met this guy, a friend of one of my other really anti-theistic friend. However the conversation got there, I don't recall, but he eventually told me that he was a Christian.

So I asked him "so, you believe in the virgin birth?" He said no.
So... "you believe Jesus died on the cross and resurrected to heaven three days later?" He said no.

The Bible, to him was a series of allegories, good stories and ways to live your life. To this, essentially, I agree (though there are ton of not-so-good stories and ways to live life, but I digress).

So I came back at him, not to tell him that his beliefs come from the ramblings of illiterate desert nomads, not to tell hm that the Bible is an abridged and carefully edited tool of propaganda... but what I said to him was that based on what he told me, he was not a Christian. This made him mad.

My point being, that if you don't believe in the virgin birth, and you don't belief in Jesus' resurrection, you've missed the entire mark. Those are the BIG ONES. Those are the undeniable Christian precepts; there are a lot of 'interpretable' messages in the Bible, as the many different schools of Christianity teach and preach. But those two presuppositions are essential to living life as a Christian. I told him he was not a Christian. This made him mad.

If our mutual friend hadn't gotten in the way, he might have hit me. That wouldn't have been very Christian of him, either.

As long as there are people like this in the world, we will need religion to herd the masses. The entire base of religion wasn't about being good to each other; it was about societal control. Obviously, there are way too many people still around today who haven't evolved much further intellectually than the people around during the birth of JC, so religion still serves its purpose, and that is to control its followers.

Everyone says religion is so bad and stupid when it's really not. Religion isn't a machine; religion is people. Religions don't start wars, people do. Blaming religion for all the ills in the world is like blaming Henry Ford for all the auto accidents today because he invented the first mass-produced automobile. Until people can stop being retards and learn to think for themselves, religion will never go away.

 

[Shpongled]

But by that analogy, wouldn't Henry Ford literally be responsible? I mean if he never created mass produced automobiles, there wouldn't have been wrecks.

Without religion, there would never be holy wars.

Nor an ultra good Megadeth song.

 

[flu boy]

 

[Shpongled]

Until people can stop being retards and learn to think for themselves, religion will never go away.

Also, if people weren't retards to begin with, religion may never have been invented. I don't think people have this sort of change within them. The way of the human is to be retarded

 

[Dead Winter]

But by that analogy, wouldn't Henry Ford literally be responsible? I mean if he never created mass produced automobiles, there wouldn't have been wrecks.

Without religion, there would never be holy wars.

Sure, there wouldn't be holy wars. But since we're retarded humans, we would've found other reasons to kill each other, which we did. Wars for land, resources, power, even PRIDE.

Human beings are a cancer on the face of this earth. Not religion, not technology, not carbon emissions...PEOPLE.

 

[Dead Winter]

Also, if people weren't retards to begin with, religion may never have been invented. I don't think people have this sort of change within them. The way of the human is to be retarded

Well, this is what I'm saying. Humans are to blame for religion, since we invented it. Attack the root of the problem, not the branches at the top of the tree.

 

[Shpongled]

So are you saying we should keep religion around to keep these people happy, or kill them because they're retarded? I'm sort of confused as to the basis of your original post.

 

[Malergion]

Since you're all retarded humans, I find all of your arguments invalid by default.

 

[Dreadful]

I agree with Dead Winter more than anyone else here. The fact remains though...there are many changed lives from religion and there are alot of people who've cleaned up their lives better because they sought a belief in a creator. Psychologically that's helped alot of people. I dunno man...nowadays, at least in the city I live, and being on the internet and all...people HAVE the freedom to believe in whatever they want. Alot of people ENJOY, WANT, and are completely fulfilled with being Christians. I don't see religious people persecuting and burning people for not reading the Bible...people are turning this whole "Religion is evil, it's the big man, it's the terror of this world" into something utterly delusional. Around the world in different countries...it's a different story, but not everywhere. There are so many people who argue on the internet passionately about disbelieving in God, or a God, or all these stances or views...yet they don't do SHIT about it offline. If Christians are bunch of retards, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

Also, if people weren't retards to begin with, religion may never have been invented. I don't think people have this sort of change within them. The way of the human is to be retarded

Actually, religion started as an early form of science as a result of the inquisitive nature of man. A means of explaining the world around us: why the sky is blue, why it rains, why there are different seasons, etc. Eventually it warped into a moral code, and thats when it got all kinds of fucked up.

 

[Dead_Lioness]

Human beings are a cancer on the face of this earth. Not religion, not technology, not carbon emissions...PEOPLE.

...and religion just adds the pepper and salt as a finish touch to people, Chris.


Religion has done a lot of good? It has done more evil and bad than good.
You all talk about 'christianity' like it's the only religion and compare it to only that, well, there are more than just Christianity and all of them are as equally evil and twisted. (Islam takes the cake though)

I don't care about good stories here and there that religion helped individuals,
that's their problem, and quite frankly, they could have helped themselves without 'religion' but that's just my opinion.
Religion is EVIL, mind controlling, and useless in today's society.
I wish everyone would get over that disease already.

 

[Dead_Lioness]

. If Christians are bunch of retards, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

So, you're basically telling me to become 'religious' about doing something against Christians but to the opposite side?
Do what exactly? Kill them? preach to them that god-is-not-great?

I'm not THEM. I'm not going to do shit about it, because if they want to waste their pathetic lives believing in fairy-tales, that's their bloody problem.
As long as they don't shove it in my face, and make stupid laws about it (i.e. abortions being illegal- and I have been to that rally) I couldn't care less about them.
THAT is what I'm doing, that is different than them!

 

[Dead Winter]

I'm just looking at it from an objective point of view. Yes, religion has done more harm than good in society, but that has been due to the ignorance or inherent evil in mankind. Also, I wasn't singling out Christians, either, which proves that one can believe in a religion and not want to blow themselves up in a marketplace IF THEY BELONG TO A CIVILIZED SOCIETY. Religion is a tool for controlling the weak-minded. It is not inherently evil; it is the human being which is inherently evil if brought up in a primitive society. Religion is simply a form of government of the mind.

The damage done to the world in the name of religion was done by us humans, not allegorical stories and fables in an ancient book written by primitive men two millennia ago. If religion were inherently evil, we would still believe that the world is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth. Just as humans are able to commit horrible atrocities in the name of their preferred deity, they are also able to rationalize and use their brain for critical thinking. Once again, it is a societal problem that people cling to religion instead of rational explanation, not religion itself. The entire precept of the ten commandments in the Christian religion is basically "be a good person and don't hurt anyone." In no way, shape or form does it mention killing others in the name of their god or persecuting others for believing in something different.

Once again, the entire reason religion has been the source of conflict and misery over thousands of years can be laid squarely at the feet of ignorant, selfish, and evil human beings who warped their own religious teachings to support their own agenda. The flaw is US, not a dogma. If everyone truly followed the teachings of the peaceful religions, there wouldn't be war, poverty, starvation, and persecution in the world. It is the human being that has brought about all of that. I'm not holding a flag for religion, I'm simply being objective. If all the humans on earth were to become extinct, religion would no longer exist. Obviously, religion needs people in order for it to exist and function. It's entire purpose was to keep control of the uneducated masses, much like what Max said...it was a way to explain the unexplainable at the time. The perversion of religion for selfish needs was done by man...it wasn't taught in any of the precepts in which many religions were built upon.

Speaking of modern day, humankind should be evolved enough to keep an open mind about the universe and religion, and that creationism bullshit is just that: bullshit. We are evolved enough to the point where we should be good to one another and share with others who are less fortunate. That will never happen because every single human being on the face of the planet is selfish and lazy, just to different extents. We're not perfect beings.

Saying, "Religion is the bane of all existence!" is a bit premature, in my opinion, since humans created it. The evil present in human nature is the bane of all existence, not religion. The perversion of religion done over thousands of years by man is what's terrible about religion, not religion itself. Again, imagine if we all lived according to the ten commandments. Eventually someone would get greedy and kill someone else because we're human. We can try and reach an impossible goal, but we're human beings. We're inherently evil and that will always trump our willingness to do good.

The only problem with religion that I have is when they replace common sense and a curious, open mind with religious dogma. But, yet again, that's the human's fault, not the religion's. Religion can go away tomorrow if you'd like...all you'd have to do is teach people not to be selfish, ignorant, lazy, and evil. Good luck.

 

[Dead Winter]

So are you saying we should keep religion around to keep these people happy, or kill them because they're retarded? I'm sort of confused as to the basis of your original post.

I'm saying that as long as people refuse to have a curious, open mind there will be religion for the weak-willed and weak-minded. It is up to human beings to open their minds and find their own enlightenment.

Let's be honest: Christianity/Judaism combined with science is the reason we're not on par with Islam in terms of primitive societies and we've had an enlightenment period. Religion taught us not to kill each other from the very beginning, and it has been passed down through families for thousands of years. Our human nature is always present, our animalistic instincts, but we've evolved into the society we are today by our ancestors following the principles of self-control taught to them by "civilized" religions. Today we get our moral values from our parents and family more than religion, but those moral values all stem from religion.

The only thing left to do now is to take that final step into reaching our own enlightenment and realizing that we are the masters of our destiny, not someone pulling the strings in the sky. Many people already realize this, but there are far more who don't. It's going to take time for such a breakthrough, just like it takes time for scientific breakthroughs. Just because Copernicus realized that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe doesn't mean everyone in the entire world believed him immediately. Only many years later did everyone accept the fact that the sun is the center of our solar system.

Would the world be better off without religion? Absolutely...I'm not disputing that fact. But it's because our civilization has evolved into mostly enlightened beings and we've outgrown it as we would've outgrown a pair of pants when we were younger. It served us well for the time being to get us to this point from so many hundreds of years ago, but now we can take the wheel.