This S--t is not OK.

[Diabolik]

The thing that boggles my mind is how some people around here (that are supporting both sides) have made such stupid comments...

just like mama says....stupid is, that stupid does. - The late great Forest Gump.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

When it comes to the "right to assemble" - is it a free-for-all statement, or is there a process/designated areas defined for this? (I tried to read the details of the first amendment but couldn't seem to track down anything other than the White House has designated areas for assembling).

The difference between the way you're wording this paragraph, and just saying "Ragh I hate these stupid hipsters blocking my way, they deserve what's coming to them" is that you're actually asking meaningful questions and not acting like a buffoon on the internet. There is a special kind of idiocy in believing we should have our civil and human rights taken away just because some dude on the internet is uncomfortable with being blocked for a few minutes.

Yes, there are specific places where you can and cannot assemble. However, again, from a legal standpoint, police officers are only "legally" allowed to direct the protesters to where they should be protesting. If they have no probable cause for violence, police officers have no right to incite violence. This is the basis for this thread -- not the merits of OWS, but the notion of police brutality.

From what I can find, public college campuses are public places if you attend, but are governed/administered by the college staff, which of course sets certain rules and whatnot. True, false, little of both?

It could be a little of both. But like I said, police officers aren't allowed to just beat anyone they see for any reason they feel like. And look, I understand that some of their harshness is to control the protesters and trying to prevent a full blown riot. I get that -- but what we've been seeing is a blatant human rights violation. It's disgusting.

are we to even decide not being in police shoes day to day?

Yes we are -- because we are the people who they are supposed to be protecting. When you beat unarmed people, pepper spray non-violent, unarmed girls, you're not a proud police officer doing his job. You're a coward. The minute we're not allowed to decide, is the minute this country is not a democracy.

I'm not saying there aren't bad apples within the police community. At the same time, we do not walk in their shoes everyday as they're out there protecting the streets etc. - we don't hear all the stories of the police officer who gave someone the benefit of the doubt only to be shot unsuspectingly in cold blood, in situations like this or similar. Who's to say that just because a protester is sitting down and "behaving" that they don't have a weapon of some sort stuffed in their shirt/jacket/pants just itching for a chance to "put one to the man" - I mean some of this group was chanting, "Thugs on campus!" and "From Davis to Greece, fuck the police!" - and this is before anything happened. Do you take the chance?

Good, they have a right to chant that. It's called the first amendment.

Seriously though, I'm not saying all police are bad either. In fact, I have known some good police officers -- great one even, who have saved members of my family from harm. The policemen who gave their lives in 9/11 to save other people were great people. But, I wouldn't say that there are "some bad apples" I will instead echo this quote:



And you know what's really sickening about this? Deputy Inspector Bologna's actual response to the macing was basically "whoops I meant to pepper spray another person, but I have bad aim -- sorry!" And all he got was a few vacation days taken away.

It's just like hearing the notion that we should support the troops no matter what, no matter what they do or who they are. They can blow up children from the comfort of a helicopter but we should support them. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to that policy. I support good people, not a monolithic entity made up of good and bad people.

ANYways... I do also agree that a ton of these protesters have no idea what they're even protesting at this point, and many are looking to just cause a ruckus. Jon Stewart had a pretty amazing video the other day - if you haven't seen it it's definitely worth watching (the interviews on the scene of the Occupy movement and their internal "upper/lower" class).

Jon Stewart has also defended the protest on many occasions. Just because he makes fun of the people there (and believe me, I have made fun of those people on many occasions) doesn't mean he or his show disagrees with the motive and ideal of OWS. For the record though, although I thought the bit about the "upper/lower" class at OWS was funny, it doesn't really mean anything nor make any point. OWS was never about eliminating the 1%, it was about installing some regulations and safeguards so that the people on wall street who were responsible for the sub-prime mortage crisis are held accountable. Are there assholes at these protests who are smarmy, over-entitled know-nothings just trying to get attention? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean I want to see them beaten half to death for being smarmy, over-entitled know nothings.

Also Stewart was disgusted by the videos that OP posted. It doesn't matter whether or not you disagree, those people should not have been treated the way they were treated. If there was probable cause, like if they had gotten a tip off of a drug ring, or if there were sex offenders in there, or if there was a hostage situation or whatever, then that's a different story. But we're all innocent until proven guilty under the law, so whether or not one of them might have had drugs on them -- it doesn't matter. It's a moot point.

Anyways, I hope my response isn't too harsh on you man, I know you're a good dude so I didn't mean to offend you. But at the same time, I don't buy your arguments (even though I do appreciate and respect them). I just don't see how you could argue that "well we don't know what was going on before the tapings... maybe someone held out a knife moments before the police attacked." Maybe all those black men and women who were sprayed with hoses had knives during the civil rights movement too. Ultimately, the fact that the NYPD alone is not charging everyone they arrested at OWS, and the fact that people like Bologna came out and admitted they made a mistake is proof that they recognize what they are doing. The proof that the police know they are handling the situation the way they are, calling for a media blackout, etc, is just not something that can be argued against. There's too much evidence here. But even if there wasn't this evidence, think about the logic of your post. If the police have the right to attack protesters doing nothing because "they could possibly have drugs, or a weapon hidden somewhere" what's to stop them from doing the same thing to you or me? Cheers.

 

[nailz]

I'd like to know how many of you who don't think these people know what they're protesting have made that assumption based on media coverage showing exactly who they want you to see, and who have actually gone down to the protest to see and talk to exactly who is out there and what they're thinking.



There are people like this out there. Yes, there are, but then, there are also people like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-mAUQYn6DjM

And this:

And this:



A lot of them know exactly what they're out there for. Fucking hippies, amirite?

 

[AeonicSlumber]

It's going to get a lot more uglier than this folks, just wait & see.......

That's what also worries me. And if it ever came down to riots like what happened in the UK this past summer, I would no longer be able to defend the protesters.

 

[dcowboys311]

I'd like to know how many of you who don't think these people know what they're protesting have made that assumption based on media coverage showing exactly who they want you to see, and who have actually gone down to the protest to see and talk to exactly who is out there and what they're thinking.

Maybe Atlanta is the city of morons, but I have visited OA numerous times. Each time, I left with the impression that they did not know what they were protesting -- or at least did not know how to articulate it. Combined with their inability to respond to criticism or debate on their online presence (I know of several people who have been banned from their facebook page for debating in a polite, proper manner -- not troll like AT ALL, just questioning motives) and, well...they look like idiots.

 

[Metaldrumz]

Mainstream media has its own agenda. They will take footage and edit it to fit what they want to force feed the audience which is why I stopped watching their brainwashing crap years ago.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

A lot of them know exactly what they're out there for. Fucking hippies, amirite?

Actually (for better or for worse), our number 1 export isn't weaponry, but garbage! That's right, garbage. Number 2 is movies.

 

[nailz]

 

[dcowboys311]

Copypasta pictures sure are funny but don't really help to get a point across. Someone could just as easily make one with a picture of cops saying "Remember when these cops tear-gassed and beat up innocent bystanders? Yeah..Me neither." There are shitty people in every profession. There are bad cops, good cops. Good protestors, dumbass protestors. The world has stupid people....breaking news.

 

[nailz]

Point well taken, as well as your point on the OA protesters.

 

[freakchylde]

It boggles my mind how this dude is able to function in society. Does he go around saying "HEY YOU THERE, I DONT LIKE X... YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO LIKE WHAT I DON'T LIKE" irl or is he just trolling on the web for attention?




I do agree on the whole with you. I'm not a fan of the Tea Party protests, but I don't think those people should be mercilessly beaten either. I don't think the lady who screamed "you're the antichrist" to Obama's face should be repeatedly tazed and pepper sprayed, but these trolls think the OWS kids deserve physical harm on the grounds of their own personal opinions. That being said, could you possibly word your post in a more condescending manner? They are human fucking beings. Christ. I usually get there are people here on this board who are against the Democrats and Democrat viewpoints, and that's why I usually say my piece in these threads and don't keep posting because it's not like I'm going to change opinions. But I would at least have expected some level of value for human life regardless of political side. If the most sympathy you can muster is that the police attacks are making it bad for the "taxpayers" eg, the "normal people," then I'm sorry, but don't even post.

Um, are you talking to me or someone else? My comment was a stand alone and not a response to anyone else. This is not the only instance where cops have pulled this shit and I'm not excusing them. I'm not a fan of OWS. I agree with some of their complaints but I don't agree with where they're protesting and think they could better make their point through other avenues. I've stated that to people involved with the protests and I give them sympathy for the bullshit they face from the cops.

And if you actually exercised some reading comprehension, I put it on the police officers - who are opening the city up for lawsuits, from the people sprayed - who are going to waste taxpayer money because guess where the money to pay those claims comes from? TAXPAYERS.

Now as to my posting here...well, guess what? Glenn lets me. You're not the moderator here and if I get out of line, Glenn knows good and well that he can verbally slap me down, and I know good and well that he's willing to do it and will not think twice about it. So get over yourself. Last I checked, all these protests are supposed to be about the right for the small guy to be heard. Unless you're a hobbit, I'm probably smaller than you. So suck it.

 

[freakchylde]

When it comes to the "right to assemble" - is it a free-for-all statement, or is there a process/designated areas defined for this? (I tried to read the details of the first amendment but couldn't seem to track down anything other than the White House has designated areas for assembling).

My understanding is that it depends on what it is that is going on. I know for Centennial Park, if you are doing any type of huge assembly that might encompass the whole park, you need to seek permission from the city and abide by the rules, which means vacating premises at a designated time.

From what I can find, public college campuses are public places if you attend, but are governed/administered by the college staff, which of course sets certain rules and whatnot. True, false, little of both?

A bit of both. Most, if not all colleges, have some type of police presence that cooperates with local law enforcement - consider it a small city within a city. I know at the University I attended, anyone could come onto campus, but if they received complaints from students that person was requested to leave. Rallies could be held, but anything not pertaining to the University was required to have a permit. So protests against the state or federal gov't were a no-no without the proper permitting.

What is reasonable force, and where is the line drawn, and at what point, and are we to even decide not being in police shoes day to day?

I do not believe using pepper spray, or other types of deterrents are necessary for non-violent protests. For sit-ins, if folks refuse to move, you can either cordon them off and force them to hang out till their bladders burst, or get some carts out to pick them up and cart them out on. If they start throwing punches, by all means ensure that they don't land on other folks then prosecute them for assault.

I do think we need to look at what the police officers see on a day-to-day basis, which is why I think the folks in Oakland were nuts to not anticipate the reaction they got from police. Nasty riots have happened there.

I draw the line at where the folks are and how disruptive they are. If someone is blocking my means of getting out my door to go to work, I am going to do what is necessary to either go around or remove the blockage. If going around is not an option, then I will seek to remove it. How feasible is it to maneuver around the protests? Are they shutting people out of their ability to flow freely to and from where they want to go? Are they preventing commerce from occurring between those who wish to participate in those transactions? If so, I believe the individuals and businesses being blocked have the right to go after the individuals doing the blocking. Either through law enforcement or through the civil justice system (which usually requires reporting something to the police, in cases such as those involving the protests).

Does the same force/line apply to everyone (suspicious people stopped by police, the "calm at the time" druggie that the cop is unaware of sitting on a street) or just protesters because they look peaceful?

I believe it applies to everyone, particularly large groups. I don't believe law enforcement has the right to search everyone. Unfortunately, some situations have caused martial law in everything but name. If the protests are peaceful and not blocking anyone or any business, the police officers just need to let them continue. And citizens need to remember one important thing: anything you say to a police officer can and will be used against you in a court of law. And what you say might not be used in the same context as when you originally spoke it.

Only thing I can say about the above is, from what I can read in the articles I see (and not covered in the video) is the UC asked people to remove the forming tent city by a certain time. Some people did, some did not. Police were called, and gave them another small window to do it and/or disperse. Some did not. Were all of these students, don't know. They look like it, but it's easy enough to "look like a student".

Should the police let them stay?
Should the protesters ignore the police?
Who's right/wrong?
We're taught to heed laws and the police, is it the right thing to do as the police say in this instance, and deal with the consequences whatever they may be if not?

That's what I got, too. I don't know that the police lined them up, so much as they lined themselves up to try and block police.

If the police could step over them, they should have. I believe the protesters had every right to ignore the police and be arrested.

I believe the court system will decide who is right and who is wrong. Might not be the truth, but it depends on who is capable of winning the rhetorical argument.

Civil disobedience is a corner stone of our country. It sparked the revolution that led up to the creation of the Constitution. If the cops are over-stepping their bounds (in general, not just in the UC case, which I believe they were), the lawyers for the OWS (and they have some really good ones, trust me) will pin them to the wall and hoist them on the scales of justice.

I'm not saying there aren't bad apples within the police community. At the same time, we do not walk in their shoes everyday as they're out there protecting the streets etc. - we don't hear all the stories of the police officer who gave someone the benefit of the doubt only to be shot unsuspectingly in cold blood, in situations like this or similar. Who's to say that just because a protester is sitting down and "behaving" that they don't have a weapon of some sort stuffed in their shirt/jacket/pants just itching for a chance to "put one to the man" - I mean some of this group was chanting, "Thugs on campus!" and "From Davis to Greece, fuck the police!" - and this is before anything happened. Do you take the chance?

I agree, and having been on the receiving end of the police questioning, I completely understand how they can create an incident and it escalate with how they are trained to enter into said situation. It's not fun, and there's very little you can do, without running the risk of getting charged with assault by just touching them with your pinky (if you're dealing with one of the assholes). As expensive as it can be, and I envy these protesters, as they don't have to rape their savings account for defense, I prefer to let the court settle it. You can always recoup some costs in civil court after the fact. It's a headache and a half, but it's a better way to deal with it than throwing a tantrum and getting arrested on worse charges.

I also agree with Jaydub that we probably have not seen the worst of all this - and I dread the day that this breaks into some sort of mini (mini?!) civil war of sorts.

Yeah, I worry about it, too. Which is why the "gun nuts" are stocking up on ammo. It's not because they're going to target the protests, it's because they're going to defend their homes when this country gets locked down under military law with the current congress/administration.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Um, are you talking to me or someone else? My comment was a stand alone and not a response to anyone else. This is not the only instance where cops have pulled this shit and I'm not excusing them. I'm not a fan of OWS. I agree with some of their complaints but I don't agree with where they're protesting and think they could better make their point through other avenues. I've stated that to people involved with the protests and I give them sympathy for the bullshit they face from the cops.

Now as to my posting here...well, guess what? Glenn lets me. You're not the moderator here and if I get out of line, Glenn knows good and well that he can verbally slap me down, and I know good and well that he's willing to do it and will not think twice about it. So get over yourself. Last I checked, all these protests are supposed to be about the right for the small guy to be heard. Unless you're a hobbit, I'm probably smaller than you. So suck it.

All I'm going to say is that it's a figure of speech -- you know, "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all." I wasn't literally suggesting you be censored. If your only sympathy is that the poor taxpayers are going to have to deal with it (and I totally agree with you that lawsuits against the city ARE a serious problem facing the police in this situation so don't get me wrong-- but there's a much larger issue that you seem to almost be purposely dodging even STILL just because you don't agree with the protest) and not the safety and well being for these kids who just got brutalized protesting something you don't agree with, then I don't know what to say, but your post seemed mean to me.

Oh and the first first sentence of your quote of me is for Diabolik, not you.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Copypasta pictures sure are funny but don't really help to get a point across. Someone could just as easily make one with a picture of cops saying "Remember when these cops tear-gassed and beat up innocent bystanders? Yeah..Me neither." There are shitty people in every profession. There are bad cops, good cops. Good protestors, dumbass protestors. The world has stupid people....breaking news.

Except that a copypasta picture of cops saying "Remember when these cops tear-gassed and beat up innocent bystanders? Yeah..Me neither." isn't really that funny because there's footage of it all over the internet. I mean, I guess it's funny on an ironic "pointing-out-the-horrors-of-the-world" level, like racist humor.

Also, Nailz's post is doubly ironic, because nobody cried about the biker gangs counter protesting the WBC at funerals. Nobody sung and danced about "blocking public space" during that. It's funny how seriously personal opinions influence people, and I'm not saying that against you, but as a general statement. Even more ironic is that the precise reason why nobody beats up the WBC for protesting is because they are highly capable lawyers that would defeat anyone in court. Not even the police would pick a fight with them because they know they would get their asses handed to them. But with poor people it's easy pickings of course! It's funny how easily we can disregard things because we don't agree with them.

 

[freakchylde]

All I'm going to say is that it's a figure of speech -- you know, "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all." I wasn't literally suggesting you be censored. If your only sympathy is that the poor taxpayers are going to have to deal with it (and I totally agree with you that lawsuits against the city ARE a serious problem facing the police in this situation so don't get me wrong-- but there's a much larger issue that you seem to almost be purposely dodging even STILL just because you don't agree with the protest) and not the safety and well being for these kids who just got brutalized protesting something you don't agree with, then I don't know what to say, but your post seemed mean to me.

There are many things that I don't sympathize with protesters about. Being brutalized by police is not one of them and I don't agree with it in any way, shape, or fashion. That said...given the reactions that the protests have gotten, would you, or anyone else, assume that going to a "peaceful" OWS protest is not going to run the risk of resulting in something like this happening? I'm more than sure these folks knew the full potential of what they were facing and accepted it.

I'm sorry my lack of empathy strikes you as mean, but I'm not going to show much empathy for folks who choose to disobey a request - by police or anyone else. I will suggest they lay waste to the cops, and the city, in civilian court.

Oh and the first first sentence of your quote of me is for Diabolik, not you.

Hence my question as to whether you were talking to me, or someone else.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

There are many things that I don't sympathize with protesters about. Being brutalized by police is not one of them and I don't agree with it in any way, shape, or fashion. That said...given the reactions that the protests have gotten, would you, or anyone else, assume that going to a "peaceful" OWS protest is not going to run the risk of resulting in something like this happening? I'm more than sure these folks knew the full potential of what they were facing and accepted it.

I'll be 100% honest with you. That's the reason why I myself have not protested -- I don't want to get attacked by the police. But I think that says alot about the state of the police in our society more than anything. A bunch a smelly undesirables gather together and so they deserve to get treated like shit. It's exactly like how Giuliani handled the homeless in New York City when he was mayor. He basically locked up all these homeless people just for being homeless and then sold it to everyone as "I cleaned up the city!!" What do the people care? No more smelly stinky homeless people on the streets anymore, so it's a win-win.

60 years ago, those same people would have said the same thing about black people.

I'm sorry my lack of empathy strikes you as mean, but I'm not going to show much empathy for folks who choose to disobey a request - by police or anyone else. I will suggest they lay waste to the cops, and the city, in civilian court.

I'm not trying to be mean to you either but I will give you some food for thought -- how many people said the same thing about black people in the 1950's and 60's?

 

[freakchylde]

I'll be 100% honest with you. That's the reason why I myself have not protested -- I don't want to get attacked by the police.

Suck it up and go, if you want to. I don't protest because I'd rather spend my time talking to my Reps, working with my local business bureau, and my other corporate contacts to change the culture of business, locally, to be more responsible to the community and their employees. I believe in being active in change, instead of just seeing how loud I can yell, so someone else can take up my slack.

But I think that says alot about the state of the police in our society more than anything. A bunch a smelly undesirables gather together and so they deserve to get treated like shit.

These are folks, who have shower facilities in the homes they live in, who've chosen to move into a park (in NYC, a private lease at that). They're not just having a sit-in, 1960/70 style, they're squatting. As far as NY goes, they pushed away the homeless and actively intimidated to keep them out of the kitchen lines. I honestly have more respect for the other OWS locations because they've sat down and talked to them and embraced their complaints.

It's exactly like how Giuliani handled the homeless in New York City when he was mayor. He basically locked up all these homeless people just for being homeless and then sold it to everyone as "I cleaned up the city!!" What do the people care? No more smelly stinky homeless people on the streets anymore, so it's a win-win.

Yeah, I didn't feel like ^5ing him for that shit, either. But NY is a different beast, they have rapes and murders in plain sight while others look away and don't call the police. Great place to live, I hear.

60 years ago, those same people would have said the same thing about black people.

And many who live the results have no idea about what they sacrificed and what they faced. They act like it's their God-given right that wasn't actively fought for. Many who were activists also knew what they were facing, and they made the choice. I applaud them for it, because they were asking to be treated like everyone else - and they should have been. These kids are asking for something completely different and it's more political than civil. If this were a full-on civil rights issue, where they were being treated differently for some reason, they'd have more respect from me. But they aren't. They're pissy about the fact that our politicians have decided that getting re-elected is more important and he who has the largest war chest gets the rewards (and this is the one issue I agree with them about). The real issue? The citizens of this country made that the status quo by voting for the person who could afford to put their name everywhere on TV and put out the nastiest ads against their opponents. WE CREATED THIS.

I'm not trying to be mean to you either but I will give you some food for thought -- how many people said the same thing about black people in the 1950's and 60's?

It's not mean, and it's not food for thought. As I said earlier, two different issues. The civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s was exactly that, it was a civil rights movement and it's something that some of these kids could actually learn from. The civil rights movement knew what it wanted. It had a clear message, objectives, and goals. It made itself political and the ones that made the most gains, were the ones that didn't actively seek fights with police. IMO, MLK gained the most respect over the Black Panthers, because he sought unity. He sought to work through society and with it, not against it. They also completely understood Gandhi's version of civil disobedience - they understood that violence might happen, and that reacting with more violence would change the rhetorical debate against them. Being peaceful martyrs made their cause hold more sympathetic weight, they were getting beat up without lifting a finger. They understood that. Protesters throwing stuff (Oakland) at police detracts from that message.

Blocking traffic, public transportation isn't working through and with society. It's preventing those they claim to represent from supporting themselves and focusing on what's important to them, right now....keeping whatever job they have.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Update: UC Davis police chief put on administrative leave!

 

[dcowboys311]

Except that a copypasta picture of cops saying "Remember when these cops tear-gassed and beat up innocent bystanders? Yeah..Me neither." isn't really that funny because there's footage of it all over the internet. I mean, I guess it's funny on an ironic "pointing-out-the-horrors-of-the-world" level, like racist humor.

Also, Nailz's post is doubly ironic, because nobody cried about the biker gangs counter protesting the WBC at funerals. Nobody sung and danced about "blocking public space" during that. It's funny how seriously personal opinions influence people, and I'm not saying that against you, but as a general statement. Even more ironic is that the precise reason why nobody beats up the WBC for protesting is because they are highly capable lawyers that would defeat anyone in court. Not even the police would pick a fight with them because they know they would get their asses handed to them. But with poor people it's easy pickings of course! It's funny how easily we can disregard things because we don't agree with them.

Who said anything about it being funny? I made that point to show that images like that are invalid. You can find plenty of footage of cops being brutal towards protesters, sure. Does that mean all cops are bad? No. You can find plenty of footage of black people robbing stores. Does that mean all black people are bad? No. Sadly, you can find plenty of footage of adult males doing terrible things to little kids. Does that mean all adult males are bad? No. The point is, a very small subsection of a population does not in any way, shape, or form make up the majority. This should be common sense by now.

 

[Cheiron]

Nothing new to see here. Police have been doing this (and far worse) to peaceful protesters for a long time. It will only change when we move away from the concept of government.