Thoughts about the music business

[tuonelan]

I want also buy things of which money goes to the band or at least something goes. I want to support the band. I don't know how the money is shared with band and their recored company so I happily take information of that. How about the gigs? How much a band gets of said like a gig in a club in Helsinki 2000-3000 people in? I mean, the place must take something too?

As I understand it bands usually get help from their label for a tour and the other bands on the concert bill help pay for the cost as well, but when it comes to the tour the label, transportation, help, concert venue and promoters all have to get paid before the band sees any money. I hear a lot of musicians say that they aim to break even on a tour and that if they make money at all it's from selling shirts and CDs at the shows. They get the biggest % off of band merch, very low % from music sales (only after selling enough), some royalties from airplay and whatever they can scrape from a tour.

Anyone with more insight please feel free to correct me.

 

[Saara]

Same here. I also want support the bands I like, especially those who get their bread by making music. To me it's bit funny when one says that "the band X is my favourite, I really do love them", while having all their music as illegally downloaded files. Like, I always buy real albums but Amorphis would be the last band which albums I would download without paying. It's just that I feel that downloading is kind of stealing from the artists. Besides it’s nicer to browse through a real cover sleeve, admire beautiful artworks and read the lyrics.

I have an impression that bands get their bread mostly from the gigs, just because people rather download music than buy real albums. But someone wiser can say how much they actually get from one gig, because I actually have wondered this as well.

Thank you for answering, all of you who did. I feel it stealing too if I download an album, like I would take money off artist's pocket. They do huge work for an album and people download it, it is so wrong. I use Youtube and buy albums, go to gigs and buy skirts etc. Good to hear of your answers that a band gets something for certain stuff.

 

[xptrinity]

Thank you for answering, all of you who did. I feel it stealing too if I download an album, like I would take money off artist's pocket. They do huge work for an album and people download it, it is so wrong. I use Youtube and buy albums, go to gigs and buy skirts etc. Good to hear of your answers that a band gets something for certain stuff.

Sorry to break it to you, bit it seems the labels did a great job in brainwashing you. If it weren't for people like you the recording industry would have died a horrible death 5-6 years ago. Its business model is outdated and flawed, but in the past 15 years it stubbornly refuses to change it. The record industry bitches and moans, sues people and spends ridiculous amounts of money (which belongs to the artists) for lobbyists who try to persuade the governments to change laws in their favour. Because it is easy to live off the work of the artists, without doing much.
In this day and age, when you can record an album in your garage and all you need is some talent, some instruments, a computer or two and some software and when you can easily distribute your music to millions of people, the record industry in its current form is obsolete.

The good thing about downloading albums boils down to two things:
1. You only give your hard earned money for good albums, not for a ridiculously overpriced album with one good song you heard on the radio and filling.
2. Bands tour to maximise profits and you get to see them.

I have never hidden the fact that I do download music. If I like it, I buy it, if I don't - I delete it. But if it weren't for downloading music, I would have missed a whole lot of good music and great gigs.

 

[Saara]

OMG! :Shedevil:
But thank you that you break it to me. How in an earth musicians if not work at days, and usually can not, get their bread onto kitchen table? That picture in your message is horrible. Why things have come to this point and are there anything people or musicians can do to change it?

Sorry to break it to you, bit it seems the labels did a great job in brainwashing you. If it weren't for people like you the recording industry would have died a horrible death 5-6 years ago. Its business model is outdated and flawed, but in the past 15 years it stubbornly refuses to change it. The record industry bitches and moans, sues people and spends ridiculous amounts of money (which belongs to the artists) for lobbyists who try to persuade the governments to change laws in their favour. Because it is easy to live off the work of the artists, without doing much.
In this day and age, when you can record an album in your garage and all you need is some talent, some instruments, a computer or two and some software and when you can easily distribute your music to millions of people, the record industry in its current form is obsolete.

The good thing about downloading albums boils down to two things:
1. You only give your hard earned money for good albums, not for a ridiculously overpriced album with one good song you heard on the radio and filling.
2. Bands tour to maximise profits and you get to see them.

I have never hidden the fact that I do download music. If I like it, I buy it, if I don't - I delete it. But if it weren't for downloading music, I would have missed a whole lot of good music and great gigs.

 

[tuonelan]

I have never hidden the fact that I do download music. If I like it, I buy it, if I don't - I delete it. But if it weren't for downloading music, I would have missed a whole lot of good music and great gigs.

I follow the same sort of practice myself. If I hear good things about a band I'll usually go to youtube to look for samples. If I make it through a couple of those, I'll go searching for a DL somewhere and dump it into a temporary folder. I listen to the DL version on VLC and usually give it two or three listens before I decide whether to spend money on it or not. If it lasts beyond a handfull of plays I'll spend the money and keep the authorized version. If it doesn't hold me after two or three complete listens, I delete it.

When possible I buy direct from the band so that they get the markup. Same with shirts. If international shipping is too much I try to see if they have a decent quality DL version to buy.

Free Dominguez of the Kidneythieves once said that she could make a living by selling 10,000 copies of a CD direct to fans but the band ended up in debt and dropped by their label after selling "only" 500,000 CDs.

Most small metal labels aren't that bad in how they treat their artists and don't make a ton of money, but the bigger the label, the bigger the douchenozzles. I really don't buy much that isn't from a small label, both for this reason and because I usually don't appreciate the sort of changes they insist upon in order to try to push the sales above 500k. Commercially friendly usually = faceless and uninteresting in my ear.

 

[xptrinity]

OMG! :Shedevil:
But thank you that you break it to me. How in an earth musicians if not work at days, and usually can not, get their bread onto kitchen table? That picture in your message is horrible. Why things have come to this point and are there anything people or musicians can do to change it?

Do some reading. You can start with Courtney Love's letter. Or this
But there is a whole lot more on the internet

 

[Saara]

When possible I buy direct from the band so that they get the markup. Same with shirts.

I hope I mage quote thing right. So I will start buying skirts and stuff in gigs. By the way, there is a book of Amorphis, I heard it was sold in American tour. I haven't found it anywhere, anyone know is it somewhere to buy? I would really love to have it. I don't judge anyone if download music, everyone can do what wants. I have done it myself too, who has not done it? But my husband who found Amorphis about a time of Karelian Isthmus, he was stubborn wanting to buy original album. Now I understand why.

 

[papajohnny]

I agree with xptrinity and tuonelan - their approach is quite reasonable in my eyes.

I personally download music. A lot. And what is considered the bad p word is a very good thing in my eyes - the easiest way to get your band known is to have material circulated, and the easiest way to it is the netz, of course. One must mention, of course, the bands that give their albums "free to listen" (not necesarrily download) - bandcamp, soundcloud etc. are a great way of legally listening what you like and then deciding if you should buy it - moreover, you can do it right then and there.

That all said, I also try to buy albums. Emphasis is on "try", because I've so far run into a lot of problems. However, when buying albums I prefer the physical copy (CD or vinyl - both are fine with me), rather than MP3, FLAC or whatever.
As for the actual albums I buy - as much as I'd like to have collections of my favorite bands' stuff (as everyone wants, I guess), I only buy albums that I deem good and worth my money. I never buy albums just for the sake of it, unless the price is quite tempting, which is a rare occasion.
Also, regarding the whole package - a 15 bucks millionth reissue of some good album that has nothing but a lousy printed piece of paper which should represent an album cover, with no booklet, no lyrics etc. is a worst thing ever.





I have a question, though not a particularly bright one, regarding the whole diagram thingy - where's the money that music shops get?

 

[Eurynome]

I don't listen to music on the PC much, but listening to Radio Rock for a few hours today ultimately broke my resistance and I finally signed up to Spotify, where right now I'm happily listening to Aura Noir (don't have any of their stuff yet and will see them live soon, hopefully they'll have some material on sale there). I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not the internet that's "killing music" but radio playlists. I hope the spot in hell that's reserved for whoever invented the concept has a good supply of commercial Finnish stations. Although I don't assume the situation to be much better elsewhere.

 

[xptrinity]

I don't listen to music on the PC much, but listening to Radio Rock for a few hours today ultimately broke my resistance and I finally signed up to Spotify, where right now I'm happily listening to Aura Noir (don't have any of their stuff yet and will see them live soon, hopefully they'll have some material on sale there). I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not the internet that's "killing music" but radio playlists. I hope the spot in hell that's reserved for whoever invented the concept has a good supply of commercial Finnish stations. Although I don't assume the situation to be much better elsewhere.

If there was a Spotify service in Bulgaria, I would have subscribed. But we don't have it All in all, Bulgaria, being a very small market, is totally overlooked by the music industry in all manners, so we have to make do with whatever resources we have, downloading music including. Actually, the downloading is a bit of a two-edged knife - we get all the music we want for free, but we are not considered as a market at all.
As for commercial stations - trust me, they're the same everywhere. This is why I avoid them at all costs - there's plenty of independent online stations, there's YouTube and there are my playlists

Most small metal labels aren't that bad in how they treat their artists and don't make a ton of money, but the bigger the label, the bigger the douchenozzles. I really don't buy much that isn't from a small label, both for this reason and because I usually don't appreciate the sort of changes they insist upon in order to try to push the sales above 500k. Commercially friendly usually = faceless and uninteresting in my ear.

Yes, exactly. I guess we're just lucky that our preferred musical style is not the major interest of the big labels, but still, there are some bands who are on a big label.

However, when buying albums I prefer the physical copy (CD or vinyl - both are fine with me), rather than MP3, FLAC or whatever.
As for the actual albums I buy - as much as I'd like to have collections of my favorite bands' stuff (as everyone wants, I guess), I only buy albums that I deem good and worth my money. I never buy albums just for the sake of it, unless the price is quite tempting, which is a rare occasion.

I have a question, though not a particularly bright one, regarding the whole diagram thingy - where's the money that music shops get?

Of course, when I give my money, I give it for the physical copy. I like the artwork, the smell of ink and plastic, the pleasure in unwrapping the cellophane and leafing through the booklet for the first time. I feel particularly let down if the booklet is just a little folded piece of paper, without proper artwork, lyrics, etc.

As for the diagram thingy - a good question, but I don't know. Anyways, I suspect the music shops share is not considerable anyway.

 

[Eurynome]

I like the artwork, the smell of ink and plastic, the pleasure in unwrapping the cellophane

In my cats' esteemed opinion, the latter is the best part of it all... I read somewhere that in Finland, a quarter of a CD's price is the dealer's share, but I have no idea if that's correct and whether the figure referred to the retailer's actual margin or included the wholesale price. All I know is that a decent record shop is a labor of love rather than a get-rich-quick scheme, although for example here in HKI, Levykauppa Äx and Keltainen Jäänsärkijä prove that you can still make a sustainable business based on quality choice and diligent customer service.

 

[xptrinity]

This is ridiculous! Went to iTunes with the idea to buy Hopeless Days. Well, guess what - it is only available for pre-order here and I have to wait another three days.
Dear music industry, I really don't get you! The song will most likely leak within the next few hours either on YouTube or The Piratebay, or the Russian torrent trackers. And I will get it from there. For free. I know 99 euro cents are not much and three days is not a long time, but I totally don't get it.
So, dear music industry, you annoy me, because you just don't make sense and I hate giving money to stupid people. - You could've gotten my 99 cents, but now that I have to wait for another three days, I am not too sure you will. It's just that I will have the song by then, one way or another.

 

[orcslayr23]

This is ridiculous! Went to iTunes with the idea to buy Hopeless Days. Well, guess what - it is only available for pre-order here and I have to wait another three days.
Dear music industry, I really don't get you! The song will most likely leak within the next few hours either on YouTube or The Piratebay, or the Russian torrent trackers. And I will get it from there. For free. I know 99 euro cents are not much and three days is not a long time, but I totally don't get it.
So, dear music industry, you annoy me, because you just don't make sense and I hate giving money to stupid people. - You could've gotten my 99 cents, but now that I have to wait for another three days, I am not too sure you will. It's just that I will have the song by then, one way or another.

Generally new music is released overseas on fridays and in the USA on tuesdays. That's just how it is across the industry.

 

[orcslayr23]

I would highly recommend checking out the facts about the music industry that this anti-piracy movement presents:

www.industryembers.org

 

[xptrinity]

Well, I am in Europe. Care to explain?

 

[orcslayr23]

Well, I am in Europe. Care to explain?

I'm probably wrong about the Europe thing hahaha. I just know that with albums generally in Europe albums come out a couple days before the USA. As for the exact day i'm not sure.

 

[tuonelan]

I would highly recommend checking out the facts about the music industry that this anti-piracy movement presents:

www.industryembers.org

Not a bad organization, but not entirely convincing in their arguments either. In particular I thought the response to 'Adapt or Die' was weak and shows a lack of understanding as to why digital distribution is killing the music industry. It's not a behavioral problem, it's a fundamental shift in production that the industry must adapt to. The only reason that labels got as big as they did was because of how hard it was to physically produce analog media -- just like it was a big material deal to print a book. That relationship has changed and until the industry reorganizes itself around the new truth of production and distribution they will continue to leak money like a sieve and squeeze the artists portion to keep themselves afloat.

Until the industry sees that the artists are the most valuable part of the equation they will continue to self-justify and to wither.

Also, I think the organization, like the industry, is too US-centric in its view of how music happens. One of the reasons, I believe, why the Nordic metal bands are producing more pioneering music than the American scene is because the bands don't have to worry about shit like needing health insurance or starving because there's a safety net there. It's not a great living, but it beats what most beginning bands in the US have to deal with. A lot of artists can also get grants to teach their art at community centers and can get cultural grants to produce a record. Those little things reduce the pressure on a band to make it and keep them going longer. In the US you either make the jump to the big time or the band gets killed trying to make the jump.

 

[Mihau]

There's a saying in Poland that if you download music - you're a thief, and if you buy albums - you're a loser. The statements are exaggerated but the truth lies somewhere in the middle. When you blindly believe that buying albums is the biggest support artists can get, you're apparently brainwashed by labels, as Xptrinity stated. On the other hand, if you just download music, it's obviously wrong. My comment on that is as follows: I first heard Amorphis because I downloaded a couple of their songs advised by a friend of mine, now I possess the entire discography. I still download music from the internet (and I'm not going to stop doing it), and I still buy stuff which I consider worth it. Labels would like people to buy albums without even knowing what they contain, or promoting by one song. I say: no, thanks. However, there's one exception in my case. Guess the band's name

 

[Eurynome]

I'm glad Nuke Blast had the sense to release that lyric video for Hopeless Days. They've been doing the same for several bands lately, and I see it as a way of creatively dealing with the fact that any new song will show up on youtube within a day or two of its release anyway. Better beat the bootleggers to it with something that offers added value (the lyrics) as well as room for some advertising that will actually be viewed.

 

[xptrinity]

It's not just them - other labels have started doing it, too. Big and small alike.
Feels a bit like karaoke, but it's fine, actually.