Thoughts on the novelty factor in music

[MarcusGHedwig]

Something I've always noticed in my music-listening lifetime is that sometimes I'll really dig an artist or band because I've never heard anything like them before, only to find out that they copped a lot of their sound from some other band (e.g. many of Gojira's heavy DM riffs being Morbid Angel, ahem, "tributes")...but does that invalidate the coolness of the band or the worth of the music?

In the case of Gojira, the answer is obviously "fuck no pussy", but one band that springs to mind is Between the Buried and Me, though in their case it was many of the metal ignoramuses (ignorami?) I went to college with that I had to endure endless blubbering from when "Colors" came out, to the effect of BtBaM being so amazing and creative and incredible musicians and blah blah blah...but all I heard was some unpleasantly disjointed spastic transitioning from generic deathcore sections to blatant Dream Theater reacharounds (complete with synth/lead runs, that trademark "DA-da-DA-da-da-DA-da-DA-da-da" rhythm, random fucking ragtime breaks and shit, etc.)

So yeah, not a big BtBaM fan because to me the only real groundbreaking thing I heard on "Colors" was the particular collection of influences they patched together (and cuz most deathcore admittedly bores me) - not really sure where I'm going with this truthfully, since I'm sure there are a bunch of guys who know all their influences and still like BtBaM and "Colors", but I'm sure you all have experienced this phenomenon, so I'm mostly thinking out loud and just looking to spark some discussion on the subject (specifically "when you find out some band wasn't as original as you thought, how does it change your opinion of them?", NOT so much whether Colors was any good )

 

[JeffTD]

Basically, if I like a band, I don't give a shit about them being similar to another band or having obvious influences. On the other hand, if I don't like a band, I will rag on them endlessly for being unoriginal and ripping off other bands that I think are better.

 

[amarshism]

^what he said.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Something I've always noticed in my music-listening lifetime is that sometimes I'll really dig an artist or band because I've never heard anything like them before, only to find out that they copped a lot of their sound from some other band (e.g. many of Gojira's heavy DM riffs being Morbid Angel, ahem, "tributes")...but does that invalidate the coolness of the band or the worth of the music?

In the case of Gojira, the answer is obviously "fuck no pussy", but one band that springs to mind is Between the Buried and Me, though in their case it was many of the metal ignoramuses (ignorami?) I went to college with that I had to endure endless blubbering from when "Colors" came out, to the effect of BtBaM being so amazing and creative and incredible musicians and blah blah blah...but all I heard was some unpleasantly disjointed spastic transitioning from generic deathcore sections to blatant Dream Theater reacharounds (complete with synth/lead runs, that trademark "DA-da-DA-da-da-DA-da-DA-da-da" rhythm, random fucking ragtime breaks and shit, etc.)

So yeah, not a big BtBaM fan because to me the only real groundbreaking thing I heard on "Colors" was the particular collection of influences they patched together (and cuz most deathcore admittedly bores me) - not really sure where I'm going with this truthfully, since I'm sure there are a bunch of guys who know all their influences and still like BtBaM and "Colors", but I'm sure you all have experienced this phenomenon, so I'm mostly thinking out loud and just looking to spark some discussion on the subject (specifically "when you find out some band wasn't as original as you thought, how does it change your opinion of them?", NOT so much whether Colors was any good )

In all art, not just heavy metal, innovation usually comes from imitation. This is why your favorite musician probably listens to music you don't like. Because if you did like the same music he listens to, you would see that he is just imitating others. Then you would call your favorite musician a rip-off. This is the case more often than you think.

 

[LeSedna]

It is funny you mention BTBAM and Colors, because this album completely changed my way of thinking about music. I remember when I listened to this one at night, I gave it two listens and didn't sleep until late at night. I have no idea how much of a ripoff it is from whatever influence, but a lot of parts of this album give me chills, and I kinda hate Dream Theater. I get bored of most of their deathcore riffs so basically I never liked all of their songs, I'm mainly into their soft/melodic parts and the contrast they make with the other riffs. So maybe they didn't invent anything, but they were the ones creating the alchemy out of it and bringing it to me, and by extension, to all the people who got into this album or their other ones.

Same for Gojira, when I listen to Gojira after listening to some Morbid Angel songs, I don't really hear a ripoff even though I see the point. Gojira mention all the time that Morbid Angel was one of their influences along with Metallica and blabla, too, so that should not be a real surprise ?

So my vision of it is that I don't really care about this, unless it's way too obvious (like all those CoB ripoff bands that emerged when it was the current trend) and a pale copy only, but I would ditch the band/album because the music is not to my taste, not because they have obvious influences.

I think there is absolutely no way of avoiding imitation. Even the most famous composers of the previous centuries all copied each other in a way. I myself get inspired by specific songs, and then my next song will have some similarities with those. Then I build around, and maybe it will sound obvious when it is finished, maybe not, but that's what inspired me, because I am not gonna be inspired by something I don't like. If I'm in the mood for writing music, and just discover an absolutely wonderful say Katatonia album, chances are that I'm not gonna write a reggae inspired song in the next few days ! Plus, we are what we eat, so if what you listened to for several years was Morbid Angel's discography, I don't know if you should be qualified of a stealer when what you naturally write are low tuned groovy riffs.

I would be the same as Jeff, because the band wouldn't have diserved more imo. If you do a rip-off, do it well and push further !

Reminds me of the Apple bashing, "they didn't invent anything blablabla" yet they were the ones putting it all together nicely, flawlessly, blablabla

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

In all art, not just heavy metal, innovation usually comes from imitation. This is why your favorite musician probably listens to music you don't like. Because if you did like the same music he listens to, you would see that he is just imitating others. Then you would call your favorite musician a rip-off. This is the case more often than you think.

That's a really good point dude, one I hadn't considered, though now that you mention it I can definitely think of many interviews with artists I'm fans of where they mention music they listen to that I'm not so much a fan of, but undoubtedly plays a part in the creation of the sound of the artist that I like

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

But yes, Jeff's post sums it up pretty nicely too

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

That's a really good point dude, one I hadn't considered, though now that you mention it I can definitely think of many interviews with artists I'm fans of where they mention music they listen to that I'm not so much a fan of, but undoubtedly plays a part in the creation of the sound of the artist that I like

Honestly, the part about your favorite musician not listening to the music you like came to my head for the first time after reading your post. I would think it's been said before.

 

[006]

I just use the "if it sounds good, it is good" approach when it comes to bands. If they are showing their influences I don't really care as long as they do it well. There are some bands I like that cite a band I absolutely hate as an influence, or they will have riffs that sound "exactly" like one from another band, or from a band I hate, etc... to me it doesn't matter, just make it rock.

 

[AllanD]

I just think that transitions are something that have been lost nowadays, especially with that "progressive" and modern synthy Sturgis metalcore sound. The music isn't smooth anymore; it's nothing but a bunch of mashed together riffs that don't even seem to compliment each other or progress the song in anyway. It's just a stop/start transition or it just goes straight into a section with a completely different BPM. Then you have your awkward moments like Ants In The Sky where it's one genre to another random genre, AKA that retarded hoedown section. It all sounds super forced to me.


All IMO of course.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

I just think that transitions are something that have been lost nowadays, especially with that "progressive" and modern synthy Sturgis metalcore sound. The music isn't smooth anymore; it's nothing but a bunch of mashed together riffs that don't even seem to compliment each other or progress the song in anyway. It's just a stop/start transition or it just goes straight into a section with a completely different BPM. Then you have your awkward moments like Ants In The Sky where it's one genre to another random genre, AKA that retarded hoedown section. It all sounds super forced to me.


All IMO of course.

+1 MILLION BILLION

 

[colonel kurtz]

I just think that transitions are something that have been lost nowadays, especially with that "progressive" and modern synthy Sturgis metalcore sound. The music isn't smooth anymore; it's nothing but a bunch of mashed together riffs that don't even seem to compliment each other or progress the song in anyway. It's just a stop/start transition or it just goes straight into a section with a completely different BPM. Then you have your awkward moments like Ants In The Sky where it's one genre to another random genre, AKA that retarded hoedown section. It all sounds super forced to me.

this same thing bugs the crap out of me with a lot of newer/current bands as well...and i think it's really just a result of bands writing riffs rather than songs. it's like dudes sit around and come up with a bunch of shit, smash it together, and call it a song, rather than crafting the progression from one segment to another. in short, there's a lot of kids out there who need to go listen to master of puppets over and over again, and take notes while they do it...

 

[TravisW]

I've noticed bands where they've obviously copped a huge amount of inspiration from one or two other acts, but then wind up taking a blend of something else so that it's different enough to be enjoyable without seeming terribly derivative - even though the influence is obvious. In some ways, that's easier for me to handle than a band with 5 influences where they have a section that sounds exactly like each of those influences.

 

[PhilTheBeard]

I love BTBAM and always have since their self titled album..... I care if they are not original or not. I feel they write great songs and I dig them haha.

 

[Skinny Viking]

I just think that transitions are something that have been lost nowadays, especially with that "progressive" and modern synthy Sturgis metalcore sound. The music isn't smooth anymore; it's nothing but a bunch of mashed together riffs that don't even seem to compliment each other or progress the song in anyway. It's just a stop/start transition or it just goes straight into a section with a completely different BPM. Then you have your awkward moments like Ants In The Sky where it's one genre to another random genre, AKA that retarded hoedown section. It all sounds super forced to me.


All IMO of course.

you know what band is killer with their transitions?

Shadowdance

Fuck yeah

 

[drew_drummer]

I tend to think of music as temporal. As such... whilst I see connections between bands, and influence... I don't really care about it all that much. Band A exists when I listen to it. Band B who may be inspired by Band A are their own thing when I listen to it... all that matters really is whether I like or vibe with the frequencies pounding my ears at that particular time.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

you know what band is killer with their transitions?

Shadowdance

Fuck yeah

^you are a cocksmoker but I will credit you, that was funny

 

[AllanD]

this same thing bugs the crap out of me with a lot of newer/current bands as well...and i think it's really just a result of bands writing riffs rather than songs. it's like dudes sit around and come up with a bunch of shit, smash it together, and call it a song, rather than crafting the progression from one segment to another. in short, there's a lot of kids out there who need to go listen to master of puppets over and over again, and take notes while they do it...

Don't get me wrong, I love stop/starts when done well. It's been abused though, most of the time instead of thinking "Wow!" I think "Hmmm..."

 

[RedDog]

"Good artists copy, great artists steal"

~Pablo Picasso

 

[Jind]

I think it's been pretty clear in many of the posts I've made on this forum that having something in your music that differentiates it from the pack is will generally will at least get a band a second/third listen from me and possibly influence my investment in a band fro the long run. However, that being said, I do tend to use the keep it simple stupid (KISS) principle to music with the simple rule - if I enjoy it, I could care less how much is begged, borrowed, or stolen from possible influences or trends - if the song or album sticks with me, it sticks. No single aspect will likely ruin the experience for me but it's possible that something that stands out, in a bands sound or writing, will be that little edge needed for me to fully embrace them.

That differentiation I mentioned does not necessarily have to be originality in and of itself. In many cases it can simply be the willingness to experiment with the bands sound, to try to write a different album than what may have been your best album ever from the bands past. Ultimately though, it really is just as simple as - "Do I enjoy it for whatever reason that may be driving that enjoyment?"

Justifying why I like something to friends or others is really at the bottom of the list of cares for me. I'll debate a bands merits, or lack there of, if I like or dislike them, but others opinions will never make a band "my dirty little secret" or that band that I hate to admit publicly that I enjoy.

I do tend to think that every great riff has already been written (perhaps by Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler - at least in heavy metal ), we're all just speeding them up/slowing them down or changing the accents around.

If you like it, enjoy it.