Tips for full live band tracking..

[-Noodles-]

Hey guys,..

I'm doing a session on Monday where it's a situation similar to live at abbey road (http://www.livefromabbeyroad.com/)..

And I'm tracking a band which has three members (guitarist, bassist and drummer) but I'm looking for some help / advise.

The guys are probably going to want monitors (it's being recorded in a nice practice space) - so I doubt I'll have use for headphones..

but everything is being recorded simultaneously, so what's the pitfalls I want to watch out for?

I'm also using a 4 camera set up, which will be sync'd and edited later on (the mixing will happen at my studio at home) - so I don't have all the space that I might like!

Any further information required, I'll post up asap!

thanks.

Edit; here's a picture of the room (or similar to it anyway!)

 

[Torniojaws]

Why would they want monitors if they record in a rehearsal setting? You'll be in for some heavy phase or odd-sound problems if they use monitors instead of headphones.

Also, if you want a bit better quality, try to get a DI signal from the guitar and bass (splitter box), and try to trigger as many drums as you can (but at least the kick and snare), and of course record the trigger signal by itself too. Record some nice single hits from the drummer for sample replacement during editing to fix some possibly drowned out hits.

 

[-Noodles-]

Why would they want monitors if they record in a rehearsal setting? You'll be in for some heavy phase problems if they use monitors instead of headphones.

Also, if you want a bit better quality, try to get a DI signal from the guitar and bass, and try to trigger as many drums as you can (but at least the kick and snare), and of course record the trigger signal by itself too. Record some nice single hits from the drummer for sample replacement during editing to fix some possibly drowned out hits.

I should've mentioned that I'm taking guitar and bass DIs pre-pedals!

I think they mentioned previously about not liking to use headphones when they're practicing.

I've got no triggering facilities availible, apart from back at home in the studio.

Is there anything I can do about the phase problems re; monitors?

Thanks for your reply mate.. I'm really trying to work out the problems before hand! I'll try and work out a personal monitor system for them. I've only got limited amount of kit myself, and there's a mixer in the facility which provides the monitoring - however I've only got one headphone amp available right now!

 

[Metaltastic]

Looks like a helluva place - I'm totally out of my element here, so I don't think I can offer any advice that hasn't been said, but good luck man, and let us know how it turns out!

 

[KeithTidd]

I wouldn't over think it. If you ever mixed a live show (foh) you should just approach it like that. Don't worry too much about bleed, it's unavoidable to a degree but not necessarily a big issue. Just make sure you pay attention to the off axis rejection characteristics of the mics and place them accordingly. Also in my minor experience of live mixing I would make sure you aren't putting the overheads too high; think of them as cymbal mics more than anything. DI's can help. ALso, from what it looks like, the vocal monitors will face the other way from the drums, which should help keep some bleed out of the drums.

Also, when you're setting up mic stands set them up so they are low profile and out-of-the way ass possible. The point being the band is the focal point, and stands shouldn't be in the way.

 

[-Noodles-]

I'm kinda out of my element too,.. but it's part of uni - and I thought it would be a great idea!

Thanks for the reply dude..

I'll be putting youtube clips up as soon as they're ready. (i'm doing all the video editing too..)

 

[-Noodles-]

I wouldn't over think it. If you ever mixed a live show (foh) you should just approach it like that. Don't worry too much about bleed, it's unavoidable to a degree but not necessarily a big issue. Just make sure you pay attention to the off axis rejection characteristics of the mics and place them accordingly. Also in my minor experience of live mixing I would make sure you aren't putting the overheads too high; think of them as cymbal mics more than anything. DI's can help. ALso, from what it looks like, the vocal monitors will face the other way from the drums, which should help keep some bleed out of the drums.

Also, when you're setting up mic stands set them up so they are low profile and out-of-the way ass possible. The point being the band is the focal point, and stands shouldn't be in the way.

Thanks,..
I work at a tech at a large venue - so I know a fair amount about the live environment (i hope!). I can re-position stuff as required in the room, so any tips?

 

[egan.]

Your biggest concern for bleed will be the drum overs so make sure to pay attention to those. If you can get away with some baffles between amps and the kit then do it.
Good luck!

 

[seditz740novaprospect]

i would try to isolate the amps in some way, or iso the drums from the guitars with a drum shield , if you can spot mic all the cymbals from under to reduce bleed watch for phase issues with micing under the cymbals it can be tricky at first to get to sound right..

vocals if you can use a sm7 or re20 on a stand or somethign with good off axis rejection........ even a 58 or even a beta 58 through a good pre will do a great job if correctly done....


if you can get in ear monitors, it would make you life alot easier with phase issues and not give the musicians the headphone feel.................

 

[Suicide_As_Alibi]

Hey guys,..

I'm doing a session on Monday where it's a situation similar to live at abbey road (http://www.livefromabbeyroad.com/)..

And I'm tracking a band which has three members (guitarist, bassist and drummer) but I'm looking for some help / advise.

Your biggest problem/difference is the drum kit - in Abbey Road they have a drum booth looking out over the room, so bleed isn't such an issue. Anything you can do to separate the drums from everything else (or rather, separate everything else from the drums) will be a good thing.

I'd say try bringing the amps further forwards, so their backs are to the drums, and then close mic them - it sounds counter-intuitive, but I've done it a few times for recording practises and the cabs act like baffles and block out a lot of the drum sound (in my experience it worked better than trying to use the blind spots on the mics, because the drum sound won't just be coming from one direction). The main drum noise you get in the cab mics is from first/second reflections, so even though it may make the guitars sound odd, in the mix it works kinda like a room mic.

You didn't mention a singer, so if they don't have one you don't need monitors - they've got their amps right there!

Steve

 

[Torniojaws]

That's a rehearsal setting standard: place the amps so that they aim at your ears, not your knees (no ears there mate ), that should cover the monitoring without affecting phase. If you must use monitors, then place them on top of some crates or anything and aim them at the person using it AND away from any mics. For example, if the guitarist is on the side of the stage, place the monitor between the drummer and the guitarist so that the monitor points towards the audience. For the drummer, either place it straight behind him, or somehow above the snare and racktoms, pointing towards the drummer and the back of the stage.

 

[if6was9]

yeah your biggest problem is gonna be the drum overheads- your gonna have to find the right balance between them being too close and sounding weird VS souning good on cymbals but picking up too much of everything else.

I'd also add have the amps only as loud as they need to be- have the recording as quite as you can because that'll be the best way to reduce bleed.
Physical separation distance wise will help too.

 

[JeroenV]

What i used to do when i recorded bands live, i gave them seperate headphone mixes, and that worked fine.
but as you said, if they dont like headfonez...
But then again, it is a recording...

 

[-Noodles-]

Thanks guys - some great comments.
If I had access to gobos.. I wouldn't have had to create this topic.. so unfortunately that idea is out. As is tracking in separate rooms from amps.

I'm thinking that I'll be placing the amps infront of the kit - facing the singer (as in the above picture) as low as possible, and using the monitor behind the drummer so that he doesn't have to worry about it hitting the overheads.

I'm going to try and find something to use as baffles today,.. but it's looking doubtful!

Thanks again folks, your opinions are VERY welcomed

 

[ahjteam]

You didn't specify what kind of music they are playing, but I would assume either rock/punk/metal If so, here are my suggestions (I have been a live engineer for ~950 gigs):

1) Use as little and as good mics as possible. My suggestion is that just you take vocals, the DI signals + 1 mic for the amps, and 1 kick, 1 snare, 3 toms and 2 overheads for the drums (I prefer XY or ORTF), 1 omni-patterned room mic at the center of the room. If you can't make a good live recording with those, then there is something wrong with you, not th eband. No more, no less. If you put extra mics in there "just in case", in the end you most likely wont really focus to the stuff you're supposed to ("the whole picture"), but start to tweak irrelevant things in the lower tom mic that nobody will ever notice because the damn drum even won't be hit for more than 3 times in the whole fucking song, so basically unless there is a long tom fill or tom driven beat (like the main beat in Enter Sandman), ditch the tom mics too. 4/7 mics for the drums, 1+DI for the strings, 1 for each vocalist, 1 ambience. Bleed is your friend, not your enemy.
2) Put as little stuff to the monitors as possible. This way the mix is a lot less cluttered for the musicians, so they need less everything. If they can handle with just vocals for the guitarist and bass player and maybe kick, guitar and bass for the drummer, you shouldn't have any troubles.
3) If the band wants to do a live recording, I wouldn't worry about the triggers. But if the sound is just totally terrible, you can always trigger from mic signals too.
4) Take that Ampeg away from the corner, if you're using it. Talk about bass emphasis.

 

[if6was9]

Just listened to tracks I recorded of a live gig at the weekend, Bleed isn't that bad on most stuff, all together its grand, I'd suggest to high pass the oh's quite high and then build your mix from there cause if you start from elsewhere when you add the oh's its gonna mess with your mix a bit

Also play with the phase of everything, when your adding something to the mix mess with the phase invert to see which sounds best.

 

[-Noodles-]

Well,.. Last night and yesteday went well.

The band didn't really get "into" it.. but - I'm off to review and edit the footage now.

Audio clips will be up shortly!

Thanks everyone.

 

[colonel kurtz]

TBH, i've tracked bands in room not much bigger than that with drums/bass/2 guitars and not had much of a problem with bleed between the drums and amps even without gobos or baffles of any type...all i had to do was to move the kit along a wall, then stick the amps on the opposite side of the room, pointed towards the drums

then you just have to make sure to stick the OH's a little ways in front of the kit, pointing towards the drums...the close mics should already be rejecting the amps as they're behind them, and now the OH's will as well

then i had a bass amp and in the room and recorded off of its DI signal and had no issues with bleed

 

[-Noodles-]

All went well.. recordings aren't too bad - they're pretty reasonable.

I'm going to wait till the first edit of the video is up, which will be in around a week.

Thanks again to everyone!

 

[if6was9]

Cool, I'm interested in hearing how this will turn out, I've had good and bad experiences with live recordings. Main reason probably being time constraints so mic placement had to come from experience rather than listening to the mic and placing it, and since I've not got that much experience some things have been very hit or miss.