Toms like Thy Art is Murder?

[shaggysi0]

you can certainly control all the bleed within Superior. Yeah, try some sort of analog modelling sim. It'll get you in the ballpark at least. Dare I say this - the pod farm preamp models are actually useful for this kind of thing, but I have a couple of other tape/saturation plugins I will go to - URS Saturation is a good one, also FerricTDS (Free) and TLS Saturated Driver.

TLS Saturated driver on a parallel tom channel with a lot of compression is something I would try. I have had success with this on snare at least, I haven't tried it on toms.

EDIT: Don't put anything before the SD2 insert - use multi-out and process the toms in the DAW and/or on a drumbuss or parallell track.

 

[Clockwork]

Well my point is that it is nothing real about it at all. Capture the performance, really? Doing that you could just sample replace the toms later in the mix. As i said, the drummer seems to be a real beast so why not capture his REAL performance instead of doing what they did. Just stating MY opinion you don't have to agree, the band certainly wont cause they all did what they did

What qualifies as "real"?

 

[crillemannen]

What qualifies as "real"?

Well real to me would be an actual performance. Not a one-take, cause that would probably be labeled live-performance. But where the drummer actually plays his parts. I just don't really see the point to the idea vs sample replacement that's all.

Like you just needed a prompt to shit on TAIM/Putney, no? I'm starting to see a trend.

Really? I did wrote a somewhat harsh comment once about the band but that's about it. And just to be clear, i'm always happy to hear a hard working band succeeding. And as I said, the working method aside i just don't like Putney's aesthetic's but I always like it when someone is succeeding having a good career. But on a pro level it just comes down to a matter of taste really.

 

[JeffTD]

Well real to me would be an actual performance. Not a one-take, cause that would probably be labeled live-performance. But where the drummer actually plays his parts. I just don't really see the point to the idea vs sample replacement that's all.




Really? I did wrote a somewhat harsh comment once about the band but that's about it. And just to be clear, i'm always happy to hear a hard working band succeeding. And as I said, the working method aside i just don't like Putney's aesthetic's but I always like it when someone is succeeding having a good career. But on a pro level it just comes down to a matter of taste really.

Yeah I mean I wasn't trying to start anything, more making an observation and speaking more candidly than I should have, but the point does kind of stand. I think this aesthetic is PERFECT for this kind of music and really like a lot of what Will does; I get it if you don't, but you did come off kinda snarky in your dismissal of it and the techniques employed to get there.

I will say that I find it completely hilarious what arbitrary distinctions we have when discussing what's real and what's not. Is him not playing his toms 'real'? If not, what's the comparison with guitar playing? Are punch-ins not real? Stopping between riffs? Piecing together a solo from multiple improv takes?

At the end of the day we're all cheating the live-recording process to make bands sound better than they actually are, or to accurately convey how good they are. The only time we should have a problem with it is when it's inappropriately applied: e.g. The Ramones probably don't need to track kick separate from the rest of the kict, or not every band should be using the same snare sample, etc.

 

[Melb_shredder]

Yeah I mean I wasn't trying to start anything, more making an observation and speaking more candidly than I should have, but the point does kind of stand. I think this aesthetic is PERFECT for this kind of music and really like a lot of what Will does; I get it if you don't, but you did come off kinda snarky in your dismissal of it and the techniques employed to get there.

I will say that I find it completely hilarious what arbitrary distinctions we have when discussing what's real and what's not. Is him not playing his toms 'real'? If not, what's the comparison with guitar playing? Are punch-ins not real? Stopping between riffs? Piecing together a solo from multiple improv takes?

At the end of the day we're all cheating the live-recording process to make bands sound better than they actually are, or to accurately convey how good they are. The only time we should have a problem with it is when it's inappropriately applied: e.g. The Ramones probably don't need to track kick separate from the rest of the kict, or not every band should be using the same snare sample, etc.

Just a point on what you said in comparison to recording guitar etc. If a guitarist records a whole riff I see that as the same as a drummer playing their whole kit for a full section. Wouldn't doing toms and cymbals separate etc be more like grabbing each single note from a guitar chord and then splicing them together?

Ps. Got no issues with the sound of that album, huge, but also curious on the whole aesthetic and doin things that way

 

[Heabow]

Well my point is that it is nothing real about it at all. Capture the performance, really? Doing that you could just sample replace the toms later in the mix. As i said, the drummer seems to be a real beast so why not capture his REAL performance instead of doing what they did. Just stating MY opinion you don't have to agree, the band certainly wont cause they all did what they did

Yes, I see what you mean but maybe they both - drummer and Putney - felt more comfortable to do this way and keep the original tom sounds - without bleed - instead of replacing them later which is quite fake sounding in most cases imho. They also could have sample the kit and replace the kick and the snare after all but I think its pretty cool in modern metal production to keep 100% real drums even using these kinds of tricks when needed. My 2 cents.

 

[Ermz]

Separating the shells from cymbals during tracking makes complete sense to me. The two being tracked at once in the same space is one of the biggest hindrances to drum mixing. It's why many of us fall back on sample blending. The amount of times I'd have loved to process a raw snare to death without it becoming a second hi-hat mic are beyond counting. Not needing to gate the toms, or find ways to deal with post-fill crash bleed using samples, or really quick cuts to the decay would be great. Having usable room microphones. So many more possibilities open up once you take the cymbals away.

The biggest issue is that most drummers just can't play this way. They often have enough trouble if you only take the kick drum away. Take the cymbals and the performance becomes a mess.

 

[Melb_shredder]

The biggest issue is that most drummers just can't play this way. They often have enough trouble if you only take the kick drum away. Take the cymbals and the performance becomes a mess.

And that's probably because most drummers were taught to play the kit as a whole. It's pretty easy to understand even a good drummer still having an issue with recording in such a way.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

 

[Manicompression]

Thats hilarious.

I didn't expect to have much of an opinion on the tom sound in question but after checking out the clip i think the ends totally justify the means in this case. Those toms sound unique and great within the context imo

 

[Mago]

I'd much rather have shells and cymbals tracked seperatly, with a performance like his, than having to use samples to get hold of the bleed, or being able to make good use out of the room mics...

I mean yeah, with the drummer being able to concentrate more on the fills and stuff it may get tighter, cleaner and more even in the performance, but why is that any more "cheating" than
edit the timing and blending in samples?
That way it at least sounds more natural, cause I think we can all agree that toms are the hardest bitch to trigger right. I always try to avoid having to trigger toms

 

[KHE]

if you record the drums by yourself, place some piezo-triggers on the toms and sample them with enough hits/velocitys => super-easy tom sample replacement!

 

[mva801]

This isn't the first time someone's recorded the shells separately, damn it. Everything Ermz said was bang on. Cymbal bleed is a HUGE problem when mixing drums. Even drummers who play with this in mind will still be limiting what you can do come mix time with the bleed. I'm sure they thought about it long and hard, and came to the conclusion that separating the two parts would allow them to get the best blend of natural dynamics and the sound they were going for. It is difficult to track this way. But probably a god send during mixing. To be able to mix a good amount of overhead mics in with the shells and not make the cymbals overbearing would be nice.

Now I got burned out on this deathcore genre years ago, and I think this band is boring musically, but the production is well thought out, unique and I appreciate the fact the Putney has been able to carve out al little space for himself in an area rife with copycats, sound-a-likes and bedroom warriors.

 

[bryan_kilco]

On the topic of tracking shells separately from the cymbals, I have a small question.

I'm assuming the toms/snare are close mic'd and also being captured in the OHs/room mic(s). Plus your actual OH cymbal track. So now you'd have "double" OH tracks if you place tom/snare samples over the cymbal tracks? If this makes sense. I've always sort of wondered about this.

 

[JeffTD]

On the topic of tracking shells separately from the cymbals, I have a small question.

I'm assuming the toms/snare are close mic'd and also being captured in the OHs/room mic(s). Plus your actual OH cymbal track. So now you'd have "double" OH tracks if you place tom/snare samples over the cymbal tracks? If this makes sense. I've always sort of wondered about this.

Yeah, you basically have two folders with duplicated mics set up. You obviously don't need shell spots for the cymbal takes or cymbal spots for the shell takes, but room/OH is always doubled up.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Thanks for clearing that up. That's sort of what I assumed but wasn't quite sure what the best method would be.

 

[ze kink]

If I remember correctly, when Dave Grohl did session drums on Killing Joke's self titled release in 2003, he recorded in this way. There's some really cool tribal sounding drums on that CD.

Don't know about that one, but QOTSA's Songs for the Deaf was recorded this way by Eric Valentine, with Grohl on drums. And I think it sounds tremendous.

A couple songs weren't by Valentine though and IIRC were tracked the "normal" way, which of The Sky Is Falling is one. Ironically I remember listening to the album, and on that song especially thinking that man this recording shells and cymbals separately can sound good

 

[shaggysi0]

Aye. It's actually very evident on the Killing Joke CD - air drum along to it and you realise you'd need 4 arms to pull it off, haha.

 

[AscentToZenith]

Well I mean to me it doesn't matter how you record the drums as long as you can play them life. I mean just like guitarist record riffs in sections to get them tight.


But to original OP.

I use Superior drummer with the metal foundry. I just started using the multi output in Reaper. I am not really used to it yet. What I have been doing is sending like my toms to the outs which the outs are separate channels in reaper to put your own plugins. The only thing is that their isn't any overhead mics on the toms when I put them to the outs. I can put plugins on them and make them sound better as a whole sure.. But I mean is that how multi works?

Also should I just turn down the bleed of the toms and add some Ferric saturation (the free plugin. I have that.)?
I suck at mixing and making music in general but we all start somewhere.
This what I got when I tried to mess with the toms. Here it is in one of my songs
https://soundcloud.com/furyof/0-10-0a
(I know the mix probably sucks. I think I need to lower the guitars but hey like I said earlier. I am not used to this. Oh and the fretbuzz is because I have the strings dropped to a lower tuning)
With those toms I never lowered the bleed. I am pretty sure you can do that in superior drummer but I don't really know much about that and how to do it. lol yeah I know.
So how can I go about getting some bigger toms like that with superior drummers metal foundry? I am just trying to get better more massive toms in my mixes. I find my toms always suck.

 

[The StabbinCabin]

Will likes go get pretty dark rhythm tones to give the drums and vocals and little things plenty of space so you hear them. If you listen on phones at really quiet levels it's easier to hear what's going on to get that sound, and it sounds like a shitload of the overhead mics to me. It's all really smart stuff to keep it all in control, but if he is going overkill and recording the snare separately from toms as well on some of these sessions that has to be so boring to record on breakdowns