too many home studios?

[A Toolish Circle]

While that may be true, I think many big studios would stand to lose money if they were to switch DAWs or were using something else. Partly for the name, and partly because that's what many engineers are more familiar with using. No engineer wants to work in a Cubase setup when they've been using ProTools exclusively for the last decade. It was one of the first DAWs so that's what most engineers learned on.
And since most of the bigger studios have it it's an easy switch if someone else is going to be mixing it etc.

what i'm acutally saying is besides pro tools , have cubase availabe side by side , many studios have both logic and pro tools to their systems , why not cubase or sonar as well ?

costs $1600.

 

[silverwulf]

silverwulf, i have several problems with your statements here.... not because i feel like being contrary, but because this is the world i deal in every single day, so i've got a little of an idea what i'm talking about. i'll elaborate below...

You guys read way too far between the lines sometimes... Let me elaborate some...

wrong. simply put, wrong. to qualify that let me state by saying that yes, truly great.. and i mean GREAT songwriting will often make an impression whether or not a demo is of goog reording quality... and i mean GREAT as in music that's just timelessly good, like early Beatles, etc. in other words, rare.... this kind of music is just rare. and guess what a label will do BEFORE putting pen to paper with a band discovered off a crappy demo? send the band in to do a proper one...

So you're saying that if a band has a crappy sounding demo, then a label would send them in to do a abetter sounding one before considering them? In this scenario, they didn't get turned down because of the sound quality of the demo. Sounds a lot like when I said..."I highly doubt that many labels would turn them down because they had a demo that was just "good" and recorded in an average home studio instead of one that was "great" and recorded in a studio where they pumped countless thousands to make."

sometimes without even giving the band money to do so. i've recorded two of these types of demos for really good bands just this past year... label loved the bands and were clued in by the average quality demos they had done themselves... but their killer songwriting showed through.

This sound pretty much exactly like what I was saying above, too. Crappy demo didn't get them blown off, and good songwriting got them attention.

...because most band get about 15 seconds in the A&R guy's CD player to make an impression..... and i don't care how good your songs are, if it doesn't grab him right away, if something doesn't stand out and compel him to listen further that CD hits the circular file...

You say the quality of the songs doesn't matter if it doesn't grab the A&R guys attention right away, but this begs the question...isn't great songwriting about the only thing that would be able to grab someone's attention within 15 seconds or so anyway? Those bands who write songs that know how to hook you from the beginning. If it's not great songwriting, I'd be curious to know what could grab a persons attention in 15 seconds? Not because I'm trying to be spiteful or anything...I'd honestly like to know...

...here you're actually helping make my point: the Boston album sounded AMAZING... Tom Scholz was no dummy.. he was an electrical engineer with awesome ears. that album stands up to this day... i was very clear in the post you were reacting to that there are exceptions, they are just rare. Tom Scholz is a very rare sort of individual.

I'll have to go back and reread, because I don't know what post you're referring to. I just read a few posts and then posted this in regards to the topic and home studio's. It had nothing to do with anything you posted.

...NOT having a GREAT recording when you march in to battle, so to speak, to acquire a record deal is a crapshoot. if your music is your life you should consider evening out your odds a bit more and upgrade your weaponry. get a killer pro recording when you set out to find a deal. it's like, do you want to go into battle against the Mongol Horde with a slinghot or with an M1-Abrahams Tank?

I completely agree. I never said you wouldn't be better off without a great recording. I said that the quality of what you could do at home is a lot better off now than it was in year's past because of the availbility of more affordable gear. Just think about it...15-20 years ago, you'd have spent a small fortune on a small Fostex 4 track, a few mics, and a couple prayers... For the same money these days, you could buy gear that would give you the ability to make recordings a lot better.

Yes, there are "miracle stories" of bands getting signed off the demos they made in their mom's basement using a dixie cup wired to a See-'n-Say on up to decent DAW rigs... but they are not as common as your comments imply, much less really...

Maybe you read something wrong. I never implied anything about bands getting deals with demos in mom's basement. If I was doing that, I would have used different examples, considering the Boston album was done after they got a record deal, not prior. What I said was that not everything you here was done in major label studio's for thousands of dollars. What that DOES imply is that you have an understanding of what you're doing with the gear you have, such as Tom Scholz did.

easily eh? let's hear yours. it's not easy at all, this statement is just ludicrous. if it was that easy we wouldn't still be here talking on an Andy Snaap forum... because he wouldn't be able to afford the Ulitmatemetal fees.

What's ludicrous is people who keep trying to make these "oh yeah, then show me yours" argument. I don't claim to be a great engineer/producer. If I was so great, why would I be here? But, it doesn't mean that others with more knowledge can't get great sounding recordings with far less money these days than in years past. That's what I said: "With affordable gear being made available to musicians at all walks of life, a geat recording is now within the means of the common musician. You can easily achieve a quality of recording at home that would have cost you thousands of dollars in years past."

Regardless, your own ability doesn't affect your ability to judge or critique. How many food critics could cook as well as the chef's they're reviewing? How many professional movie critics would even know where to begin making their own film as they're bashing a new major release?

I agree with you on most all counts, and we seem to agree on a lot of things as evidenced by your comments. I just think you read a little too far into comments...or maybe we read too far into each others...

 

[Fredrik-Ablaze]

Well all that the Svanö story proves is that whoever's mixing the album must in some way be incorporated through the whole process to prevent such mishaps.

If done correctly i still think that home tracking and mixing someplace else is the way to go, atleast until the band starts pulling of six figure royalty advances.

All this whoever still incorporates that the person behind the desk must know what he's doing

I have to agree with James on this. This was the approch my band took and all we did was make alot of work for the "big name" that mixed it. In the end we got a great sounding release but it took way longer to mix than it should of because of all the things we did wrong and Swano had to fix. In short, let someone who knows what they're doing do what they do best from the start.

 

[Carrier Flux]

James, I have a tangential but related question for you on the subject of demo quality and record deals.

I've heard at times that the band shouldn't produce an album-quality demo right off the bat because then the label won't feel like they can do anything for the band, and won't sign them...or that the band doesn't really need* the label in that case and won't be as loyal, or something like that. Is that an old truth? or completely a non-truth in your experience?

On the flip side of that, so many of these underground labels [like the ones I've dealt with] just leave the recording costs up to the bands, so I'm guessing the better quality demo they receive, the happier they'll be; as that indicates a potentially better quality album even on a low budget.

This also brings me to another piece of advice I've heard. A friend who's sort of "in the business" was warning me that people very often give intentionally bad advice because the music business is so competitive. Have you seen much of this? Man, if we musicians didn't already have enough to worry about!

I do project-studio recordings myself, and I managed to get a deal with a greek label who released an album of my material, without me ever entering a studio. However they dropped me after one album, and I don't believe the album sold very well. So for me personally I have trouble knowing if my recordings just grossly lack in quality, or if it's the material that's making the music sell poorly. I still record my material in chunks of album lengths in hopes of getting another deal...but I don't know where my music belongs. if that makes any sense.

 

[James Murphy]

Silverwulf... we could run this into the ground with semantics until the cows come home...but i've got some mastering gigs to do. following which i'm heading out to help make a video for a band that a big label wants to see before signing them.. it's a band i produced.. the label love the band, love the songs, and love my production... and STILL need more. it's a tough world these days in "the biz"..... lot's of idealism in your words. idealism is fun for the young... but you can't maintain an artistic vision through sheer idealism alone. pragmatism is a better route and despite being less aligned with art on the surface of things, it's actually much more beneficial to art than idealism. for all practical purposes, most all recordings on larger labels are done by pros, in real facilities... i don't think this will change significantly any time soon.

and yes, judging by your last post you missed and/or misinterpreted much of what i have been saying. i don't see this getting better, so i'll leave you to it. gotta get back to work. \m/

 

[silverwulf]

Silverwulf... we could run this into the ground with semantics until the cows come home...

Agreed...so let's leave it at that...

and yes, judging by your last post you missed and/or misinterpreted much of what i have been saying. i don't see this getting better, so i'll leave you to it. gotta get back to work. \m/

In that case, we've apparently missed each others points by far, because you seemed to get a lot of misimplications from my statements and read further into the comments than they were intended. Anyway, best of luck with the projects...I've enjoyed all the ones I've heard thus far!

 

[DEADHEART]

Well all that the Svanö story proves is that whoever's mixing the album must in some way be incorporated through the whole process to prevent such mishaps.

If done correctly i still think that home tracking and mixing someplace else is the way to go, atleast until the band starts pulling of six figure royalty advances.

All this whoever still incorporates that the person behind the desk must know what he's doing

My solution is simple, my next album I hire James from the ground level on! It would have been cheaper than paying for studio time and guessing if we were doing it right and basicly paying to learn how to record, that doubled the amount of time it took, then hiring someone to mix and find out we made his job a nightmare.

 

[Hammer Bart]

this is an invalid comparison. why? beginner drummer kids with cheap drumkits don't try to undercut Dennis Chambers for a gig on the Tonight Show or for the drum stool spot in signed bands. they sit at home and practice and learn and get better and go out and jam and play small shows with their peers... for years BEFORE they ever audition for any pro situations. this is not the case with the kind of home "studio" that was under discussion. but that should have been clear.

James I actually agree with what you said, I think I just worded it in such a weird way that I didn't get it across. My bad.
My point was that bands should pay homestudio guys if and only if they are skilled engineers. The comparison was perhaps a bit off, but I feel engineers, like drummers, should be 'auditioned' by in some way, so that the good ones have nothing to fear of the bad ones applying for the job. That's why I continued with saying something like "record some killer stuff and let good bands hear it".

If bands didn't go around paying people for crappy home recordings then perhaps more home recorders would be motivated to actually get skilled before they open up their business. Beginner drummers sit at home and practise because they know they're not going to get the job any other way. It's pretty weird (to me) that home studio guys aren't inclined to do the same.

It's my humble view on how things should be.
For a description of the real situation and inside info we have you James. Thanks for sharing it with us.


p.s. I think me adding the 'cheap drumkit' part made things confusing. The price of the drumkit was completely irrelevant. Sorry about that.

 

[A Toolish Circle]

James I actually agree with what you said, I think I just worded it in such a weird way that I didn't get it across. My bad.
My point was that bands should pay homestudio guys if and only if they are skilled engineers. The comparison was perhaps a bit off, but I feel engineers, like drummers, should be 'auditioned' by in some way, so that the good ones have nothing to fear of the bad ones applying for the job. That's why I continued with saying something like "record some killer stuff and let good bands hear it".


.

That's absolutely true , all the bands who record with me have heard my previous recordings and know what i'm capable of with the amount they are willing to shell out

i give them rough quotes and send them samples of what to expect with how much time and $$ they can spend

 

[Skyweaver]

The one thing that the home studio, doesnt provide is the "Producer".

The role of a qualified Producer can be cruical in so many different ways.

Tuning - for all instruments including vocals
Timing - lol "whats a click track"
Song structure
Additional Shading / Dymanics

The "video referee" - that every band needs.

3 Similar Power Metal Bands recorded last year, albums in Australia for LMP, two done in decent (Home studio) and one done in a very ordinary basic, but still it got released...

The thing is that home recording does provide is for people who have a day job are maybe middle aged, can afford some decent hardware - will never get signed, but want to make the best recordings they can.

http://www.luthor.info/Skyweaver.mp3

This we did on a $2 budget and sure it sounds like it, but theres no illusions of were it belongs in the musical landscape.

 

[Will Mourning]

Hi, I've been reading this forum for a couple years now, but this is my first post! My name is Will and I play in the symphonic dark metal band Vesperian Sorrow. We were on Displeased records for two albums, we are currently releasing our latest recording on our own label, that we recorded ourselves! Currently James Murphy is mastering it for us. I just really wanted to give my opinion on this thread as it seems there are many different scenerios for each of you. But in our situation we were on a small label who fronted us $3000.00 for the recording cost of each album. The first album cost us $8000.00 US, to record, with a poor recording at that. The second album cost us $10,000 US, so basically we covered about $12,000 of these two albums when you factor in art work. The second album we recorded with Mark Dufour (ex- Screw) who got us a decent recording, but no Sneap/Fredman quality for sure, and traveling was out of the question. To any future hopeful bands, forget collecting royalties on your cd sales, especially if you fall in the record sales department of 1-20,000, it's just not going to happen. That is the reason we decided to start recording our own stuff. We have been studying and practicing for about 3 years now, and we finally think we have gotten to the point that we can release our own stuff. But, when labels offer little to no money for recording, it seems that is the choice that they leave us, unless we want to fork over thousands of dollars ourselves, and expect nothing back in return, (as far as royalties). That's metal for ya! Luckily for us, me and my drummer Kris both share a passion for recording, and we both get a lot of enjoyment out of learning and pursuing our recording endevours. We are involved in 2-3 diffrent bands right now, and we can't even fathom the thought of being in some studio being on the clock, for something we might or might not be satisfied with. I recently read an article with our local (Austin,Tx) director Robert Rodriquez (Sin City,Dusk till Dawn), he has his own studio, and does everything his self. He basically said that if you do things yourself, and eliminate the need for other people, that is power. Of course this route is not for everyone, but for us, it is. I personally would like to thank EVERYONE on this forum for helping us out along the way, and I apologize for this being my first post.

 

[sorceron]

Hi, I've been reading this forum for a couple years now, but this is my first post! My name is Will and I play in the symphonic dark metal band Vesperian Sorrow. We were on Displeased records for two albums, we are currently releasing our latest recording on our own label, that we recorded ourselves! Currently James Murphy is mastering it for us. I just really wanted to give my opinion on this thread as it seems there are many different scenerios for each of you. But in our situation we were on a small label who fronted us $3000.00 for the recording cost of each album. The first album cost us $8000.00 US, to record, with a poor recording at that. The second album cost us $10,000 US, so basically we covered about $12,000 of these two albums when you factor in art work. The second album we recorded with Mark Dufour (ex- Screw) who got us a decent recording, but no Sneap/Fredman quality for sure, and traveling was out of the question. To any future hopeful bands, forget collecting royalties on your cd sales, especially if you fall in the record sales department of 1-20,000, it's just not going to happen. That is the reason we decided to start recording our own stuff. We have been studying and practicing for about 3 years now, and we finally think we have gotten to the point that we can release our own stuff. But, when labels offer little to no money for recording, it seems that is the choice that they leave us, unless we want to fork over thousands of dollars ourselves, and expect nothing back in return, (as far as royalties). That's metal for ya! Luckily for us, me and my drummer Kris both share a passion for recording, and we both get a lot of enjoyment out of learning and pursuing our recording endevours. We are involved in 2-3 diffrent bands right now, and we can't even fathom the thought of being in some studio being on the clock, for something we might or might not be satisfied with. I recently read an article with our local (Austin,Tx) director Robert Rodriquez (Sin City,Dusk till Dawn), he has his own studio, and does everything his self. He basically said that if you do things yourself, and eliminate the need for other people, that is power. Of course this route is not for everyone, but for us, it is. I personally would like to thank EVERYONE on this forum for helping us out along the way, and I apologize for this being my first post.

got any links to your stuff?

 

[Will Mourning]

Ok, there is www.vesperiansorrow.com, and www.myspace.com/vesperian
There are older songs from the first two albums posted. On the myspace site "Quest of the Exiled" is a demo version of a song that we recorded for our newest album. I'll post the real version as soon as I get them back from James. Thanks, Will

 

[James Murphy]

let me state for the record.. though i've implied it a few times already... all of my statements are for bands that are really and truly looking for pro careers... which, unfortunately, does not mean being on labels that offer you $3k for album budgets and expect you to deliver artwork with that on top the budget..... ( i call that adding insult to injury). i'm talking only for people taking a real shot at long careers with the larger independants and majors. no offense to anyone intended, but there's multiple levels to the music biz..... and you either step to the plate and move up to higher levels or you don't. producing your own recordings is fine... but there are many, many reasons not to, and most all involve a desire to move up to the higher levels. i've already covered most, if not all of them on these pages.

ps... hi Will.. i got the discs just as i was out the door. i'm in Atlanta right now working on a video for a band i produced recently it's just an industry thing.. not for MTV. i'll be home in a couple days and you can expect your masters done by the end of the week.

i hope you all have happy and safe new year celebrations.

 

[Will Mourning]

Hi James!

Dude, your opinion is totally appreciated! Man, we were 18 year old kids when we signed that deal with Displeased, at the time, we thought it was a steping stone type deal. But man, we've been trying to step up to the plate, for a long while now. I can think of no other band who wants a professional career more than us. We've done just about everything possible in pursuit of it. If you can offer any more advise I'm all ears! Later Bro.......

 

[Skyweaver]

I think Tom from Everygrey is also doing a fair bit of "self" help on the recording.

http://www.divisiononestudios.com/staff.html

although its interesting that its always mastered somewhere else and on the first couple of albums he had Andy LaRocque involved.

 

[kaomao]

i'm talking only for people taking a real shot at long careers with the larger independants and majors. no offense to anyone intended, but there's multiple levels to the music biz..... and you either step to the plate and move up to higher levels or you don't.

Ok James but young people can't afford a producer like you to record their own stuff, if these young people have no money what can they do?
Let's say that there are very talented people with no money, maybe they're still studying and what they can afford is just very little studios for demos, and you know better than us that these studios quality is down to none.

Maurizio

 

[James Murphy]

Ok James but young people can't afford a producer like you to record their own stuff, if these young people have no money what can they do?
Let's say that there are very talented people with no money, maybe they're still studying and what they can afford is just very little studios for demos, and you know better than us that these studios quality is down to none.

Maurizio

i can't comprehend that i'm still getting these types of responses... i've explained more than once now, this is NOT the type of scenario i am talking about. at least i don't think it is, since it's not the most clear description i've ever read. anyway, don't bother to clarify because i'm tired of talking about it. i beleve in my position because i live it everyday. my mind will not be suddenly changed for me by an opposite opinion, especially one which comes from someone who is not living it. with that i'm signing off on this thread.

 

[kaomao]

i can't comprehend that i'm still getting these types of responses... i've explained more than once now, this is NOT the type of scenario i am talking about. at least i don't think it is, since it's not the most clear description i've ever read. anyway, don't bother to clarify because i'm tired of talking about it. i beleve in my position because i live it everyday. my mind will not be suddenly changed for me by an opposite opinion, especially one which comes from someone who is not living it. with that i'm signing off on this thread.

No James I know you live with music, know music business very well etc etc.
I'm not trying to change your idea of music business
I was just thinking about young people that really want to become pro.
It's rare, but maybe there are really young acts that are really motivated, very talented, that really want to become pro, but they lack of money...
That's true a great recording stands out really well where a poor demo quality doesn't.

Maurizio

 

[James Murphy]

No James I know you live with music, know music business very well etc etc.
I'm not trying to change your idea of music business
I was just thinking about young people that really want to become pro.
It's rare, but maybe there are really young acts that are really motivated, very talented, that really want to become pro, but they lack of money...
That's true a great recording stands out really well where a poor demo quality doesn't.

Maurizio

aaarrrrrrggghhh

re-read my previous reply and then leave me alone!

lol, jeez my mind is twisting in on itself with trying to make you understand that i'm NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR SCENARIO AND I NEVER WAS!!!!!!! but to be honest if they are that young of a band then perhaps they shuold spend some time just getting better and writing songs.. get an 8 track for capturing those ideas once once the songs are written. done.

now just stop.

i had a pretty fun new year's celebration, anybody else?... my little brother drank to much and puked in 4 places.. that was fun too... lol.