Transgender

[The Poona of Peshwa]

First I never needed science to tell me when someone aint right in the head, nor do I need science to determine if some feminine boy wasnt delivered the proper supply of chromosomes. Nor do I need science to explain to me that we have female and male species for damn good reason and that it is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex... NOT the same sex and certainly not attracted to the opposite sex in so much as wanting to look liker one........ HELLO !

"Proper supply of chromosomes", "female and male species". . . Christ man, it's no wonder you have so little regard for science. Maybe one of the things they need to tighten up on in schools is science education? Or was your educational institution based entirely on using gut feeling to make sociological and psychological judgments? Once again, and I can't say this enough, what is natural is not necessarily what is right! We were created out of a filter made of mass death and extinction, that's what natural selection is. If we based our society solely on what is "natural" it would make Nazi Germany look like Mr. Rogers Neighbourhood.

But lets assume its so... are these other troubled people trying to be someone they are not ? Lets say its someone with a shoe fetish.... are they bringing their hundred pairs of shoes to school each day ? Lets say its one of the depressive types.... are they parading around infront of our school children as a boy dressed in girls cloths ?

I agree that it wouldn't be necessary to promote awareness for folks who wanted to come to school with a gimp mask on or something. The difference between that and defending fetishistic behaviour is that transgenderism would be considered a lifestyle rather than a paraphilia.

There are many things our school systems need to tighten up on, this liberal ass bullshit that has taken over our school systems is garbage, undermining morals and family structure everday faster than parents can straighten it out.

Taxpayer-funded schools in a secular society should teach kids to be open-minded and respectful of others in public. Your contempt of reason is really the culprit here. The fact is that if there's no harm that will come from the behaviour of an individual, they have the right to be protected against harassment. In an educational setting, the protection should have more to do with consciousness-raising than with threatening punishment. Also it's interesting to see the fundamental insecurity underlying your position. On the one hand, these people are wrong in the head, on the other you're afraid that it will spread through imitation.

Fifty years ago the man who invented the computer, and who through cracking the NAZI enigma code possibly did more to win WWII than Eisenhower, was imprisoned for privately committing homosexual acts. Even though he deserved a knighthood Alan Turing was locked up and pumped full of estrogen to reduce his libido. As a homosexual he was considered at the time to be mentally ill so he could not be trusted with state secrets. He ended up killing himself. I'm sorry to tell you but THINGS CHANGE, and the educational system will be at the forefront. If your quaint notions of family values are threatened by the schools telling your children that a boy dressing like a woman isn't mentally ill, and deserving of basic respect and courtesy, well then that's just tough I guess.

 

[thrashgirl]

It aint hard, maybe one day you will figure it out

That's helpful...

Its doesnt

Uh...actually, it does.

Yes I am

Then what would be a more accurate estimation?

Some one that is infatuated with clothing of the opposite sex has a fetish amounst other things.

I find that assumption flawed given the vast majority of credible experts who don't see it that way. I'd just like to know what if any empirical facts or observations lead you to this conclusion and your more general anti-transgender stance?

No... other personality disorders are not normal, I mention people that like to kill people, keep them in their freezer and eat pieces here and there... nope aint normal. Sure abnormalities vary by degrees but just call a spade a spade and stop beating around the bush

If by "just call a spade a spade" you mean just accept that any and every one with a personality disorder is Bundy or Dahmer, no let's not adhere to such irrational and dangerous generalizations.

yes it is, not that I would want to imply that theres any money in it for the psych and drug companies to have us believe we all need a pill and theropy for something + one more

Then perhaps you can cite what you find to be a more reasonable estimation?

Well at least you admit transgenders have problems

Well, I would admit that everyone has "problems." But I haven't implied nor do I believe that transgendered people necessarily have any more "problems" than anyone else.

A boy dressing as a woman is innappropriate sexual behavior.

Again, we'll have to disagree. I fail to see how one's choice of attire is inherently sexually innapropriate or deviant.

I mean, as a metalhead I dress differently than a lot of people at my school. I'm not like a goth or anything really dramatic, but no one's going to mistake me for the All-American cheerleader type in old jeans and a concert T. Some people would say that means there's something wrong with me; so where do we draw the line?

A girl wrapping her chest down, getting a butch haircut and wearing workboots ???? ...... aint right in the head

What makes her necessarily not right in the head? If she's not harming anyone...

So your suggesting more people should give it a try ? or that more of us want to be but are afraid ? According to the bleeding hearts on this topic it seems I should be seeing them everywhere I go.... but I have yet to meet one, maybe their all in Vegas ?

I was simply illustrating the timeframe in which many people realize they are transgendered. I made no such recommendation or endorsement of transgenderism, nor did I in any way imply that you "should be seeing them everywhere."

because they are wack jobs but if you really want to know its because school is for getting an education not "expressing choosen indentity"

Everywhere is for "expressing choosen idendity." 1st Amendment 101: it's not up to you or anyone else how or when someone may choose to express themselves, unless someone is being done substansial harm in the process.

Drugs arent contagious either.............

Start a new topic for that one, this one's long enough as it is.

You'll figure it all out one day. I was once a bleeding heart, feel sorry for all the poor souls, a few years of observation got me over it.

Heaven forbid we grant anyone their inherent societal freedoms...

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

I really don't like all this line-by-line stuff.
Hopefully my last crushing salvo is enough to end this thread! (not holding my breath)

 

[thrashgirl]

I really don't like all this line-by-line stuff.
Hopefully my last crushing salvo is enough to end this thread! (not holding my breath)

Sorry, I can't focus on a big block of text so I have to break it up!

 

[Charvelguy]

hmm, sounds like school is reverting to Roman themes and Greek mindsets.

Maybe we should use dogs to sniff everybody out like in 'Terminator'

My girl and myself go back n forth on this quite a bit as one of her best friends from school days is gay. I find the argument of 'gay morality' a little difficult to stomach. One argument has been that a gay man who watches porn is more moral than a straight guy that watches porn because the gay man can't help being gay? Sorry I find that argument very difficult to believe that there is morality or degrees thereof to be found in either as a bottom line, but I'm sure we can create a 'morality scale' to make everyone happy. To portray straight men who watch porn as less moral as an argument to sway against the objectification of women is kinda ..well... I'm not sure what I think of it other than its a bit messed up IMO.

As far as transgenderism, there is a person who is of such status I know of on another forum, she/he is a guitarist. They were recently featured in a TV special, don't recall what channel it was on (cable or Sat programming) but it discussed this very topic in great detail.

Its interesting in observing the whole 'coming out' of that unfold because when the person joined the forum, we all (at least those of us who think we are male and portray ourselves as such) assumed they were female.
Well after learning the truth, it made more sense because some of the male mannerisms of/in psychology,.. (in my perception) still existed at least and came through from time to time. So, like Mr Garrison in South Park, one may perceive themselves to be and carry out their lives and even make the physical change to be a woman, but to me, they still are a man, because that is how they were born, not what society, or events or thoughts made them out to change themselves to be.

God help me for posting this.

 

[razoredge]

I really don't like all this line-by-line stuff.
Hopefully my last crushing salvo is enough to end this thread! (not holding my breath)

Crushing salvo ? Somehow I didnt feel it, must be you used an army of transgender males instead of bull dykes... [honest joke and damn funny actually.......]

Not sure what your thing on science even meant but I figured when I used chromosomes in the same sentence as having no use for science I was setting myself up for contradiction, but as you can see I let it go. Big difference between a little 10th grade biology and needing the scientific or psychology community to think for me. Thats the point I was really trying to convey... I dont need someone else to think for me, nor need to read some bias study, survey or what not, hopefully you get the point. I said elsewhere Im rarely impressed and hell the scientific and psychology communitys rarely agree with themselves. Which brings us quickly back to "aint right in the head". I am a firm believer that there is alot going on in this vast population of the world today that it is not worth believing a word that comes through the big media machine or any other source for that matter. EVERYBODY has an underlying agenda or hidden motivations.

Genius is a curious, wonderful and horrid thing. Its givin us nuclear bomb.... nuclear energy.... its given us TV's, computer screens and video games... we threw out the bicycles, climbing trees, hard work and hard play.... take your pick but my youth was wonderful..... isnt this psychosis problem thing on the rise ? What with millions upon millions of Americans with symptoms seeking help from the psychiatric and drug companies... once again lets ponder how the human race ever survived the milliniums without all these modern strokes of genius....... Should it be written.... In the beginning Man created God... then when that stopped working he created science to do his thinking for him ?

Anyhow, its well know that its a fine line that seperates genius from madness. Why should one be surprised to find that an ecentric person is also a pervert ? Then was this Alan Turing just a bisexual pervert or did he want to be a woman ? Your example of the mental wards pumping him full of estrogen just confirms my feelings for the educated brainiac types, I dont care "how far we've come" the same mentality is and always will be in place, thanks for the reinforcement.

Then he commited suicide... are we now supposed to ponder the occurance of suicide and mental disorders amounst genius..... ? Or is this one example a statement that it only occurs in the repressed, druged up, perverted genius ? As for WWII anyone can believe what they want but I know the boys that died and lived through the beaches of Normandy is the example of what it took to take down the Madmen of Germany... as for Japan... we did the right thing and too little too late but once again that stroke of genius was a sharp double edged sword. So lets all tip our hats to genius... shall we

You've all used examples and asked "where do we draw the line" or if we repress these poor attention seeking, personal identity crisis teenagers from dressing as drag gueens "whats next" the perfect Arion race ?

Youve got to be kidding me !

Does this mean I should be asking, if were going to allow this freek show parading around public schools infront of children of all ages "whats next" ? Why do we repress bullies ? Oh because they gave me a booboo and made me cry ? They are only acting out on their firm beliefs of what their identity is, lets allow that? No... because you can draw the "they hurt people gays dont" card. Oh...ouch... you hurt me, my mind is OK from it all but my body will never heal...... Hello ! Saying gays or transgender exposure can cause no harm is as valid as saying they'll all be beat to death. In fact I'm sure more people are led down a deadly path of cultural acceptence than transgenders beaten to death. See my "drugs arent contagious either..." comment and try thinking about what is meant by it.... or consult your scientific heros... maybe they have the stroke of genius to figure it out.

You all favor "educating" these blood thirsty, transgender beating bullys, so I say lets call a spade a spade, lets educate the children on all the aspects of the gay and transgender community.... cause it gets friggin ugly... real ugly... but we dont want that do we ? We'll just sugar coat it and leave 3/4's of the facts in the closet and focus on who "aint right in the head" because they find this type of behavior appauling, repulsive and get the old primitive instincts pulling on them to cleanse the gene pool or at least get someone "right in the head".... surely your almighty scientific and psychology communities have done studies on the natural instincts and reactions of mankind and why we should or should not be repressing them... No ? Or does this go against the rules our governments want to keep the bleeding hearts out of their face ?

So being how no one could simple figure it out by basic properly applied evaluation, I will tell you where we draw the line in public schools. We draw the line at boys showing up for school dressed as girls, its inappropriate and unacceptable. That is more than a fair compromise being how anyone that beats one of them acting on ancient natural instincts has just fucked up their own life and future. Its a happy meeting in the middle that would totally render this entire subject moot.

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Dude,

1. Alan Turing was a perfectly fine, gentle human being, who just happened to be gay. He was given hormonal therapy until he was literally growing breasts, and he was shunned by the government and the people that he saved from destruction. All because of the backward belief that homosexuality is a disease.

2. Primitive instincts to cleanse the gene pool? Please don't even try to use scientific terminology, because you yourself admit you don't take it seriously. You make overarching claims about what is 'natural', disregarding behaviour in the animal kingdom and in other human cultures because you can't bring yourself to admit it happens. You're making blanket judgments about society as a whole based on your gut feeling. If everyone did that we'd still keep slaves and think the earth is flat. Or is that the good ol' days you long for?

3. Could you please respond to this statement that I made? I think I've made it a few times in this thread.

"Once again, and I can't say this enough, what is natural is not necessarily what is right! We were created out of a filter made of mass death and extinction, that's what natural selection is. If we based our society solely on what is "natural" it would make Nazi Germany look like Mr. Rogers Neighbourhood."

If you think that all of our natural instincts are good, then I assume you'd have no problem with guys impregnating every woman they see. Cause you know the ultimate measure of genetic fitness is the number of offspring.

Really I think this thread should just end. People are just gonna keep recycling the same arguments against razoredge, and if he can't come up with a solid reason WHY transgenderism is immoral besides saying "It's liberal bullshit", and "you'll see when you're older", there's no reason to continue this. Constantly asserting that something is natural while rejecting any scientific input is extremely difficult to argue against. Stating what you feel in your gut and can't quantify is not going to convince anyone, and I seriously doubt anything that anyone else says will change his mind.

I'm honestly so sick of seing the gay jock ads every time I log on...

 

[razoredge]

1. Alan Turing was but another pawn. Your concern here could stem to "millions upon millions" thru the ages. Not sure about backwards beliefs, surely homosexualality is not a "disease" but it is something gone astray and far from the norm, so in this there are no backwards beliefs, unless someone wanted to promote more homo orientation, that would be a step backwards.

2 - A :I can express my views anyway I see fit to get the message across if my "knowledge" or "termonology" doesnt fit your level of self gratification... too bad... then use your comprenhension skills to understand the message and dont dwell on the petty stuff.

2 - B : Primitive instincts... scientific ? Didnt think so. Im more on HISTORY than science. History contains more than enough proof of the inner workings of the human mind of all types in all situations. Here we ponder why cant a kid dress as a girl and disrupt school systems... paint a picture of them as being natural, normal and deserving... Yet we refuse to ponder why some react in a violent manor and accuse them of what ? .... not being natural, normal and deserving an environment free of "the freak show" ?

2 - C : I covered some of animals sexual behavior along time ago. It is not as its presented by the gay community and other bleeding heart liberal minded folks. Its sugar coated as to say "see its normal". Yet it is not.

2 - D : Gut feeling ? I guess you figure this is my "first day planet earth"? I am a great observer of human nature and deny nothing of the history of mankind, I've seen it all, we've all seen it all, its just a matter of how much one wants to leave in the closet and whos willing to step forward and put out the ugly, view all angles at work, all while bearing in mind the history of mankind. The truth is never popular. If this is "gut instinct" I would suggest others give it a try.

3. "Once again, and I can't say this enough, what is natural is not necessarily what is right! We were created out of a filter made of mass death and extinction, that's what natural selection is. If we based our society solely on what is "natural" it would make Nazi Germany look like Mr. Rogers Neighbourhood."

So then you are also aware that in instances of war or daring and even hard work that many of the better male selections of the gene pools did not survive ? That there was then "ethnic cleansing" performed on the women, children and so on ? So that end of natural selection has not been positive ? AND That the other end of natural selection such as disease or weakness to survive other hard times is positive... and then wonder which one of these forms of "natural selection" was most prevalent ? Most of which dont exist in human society anymore ? Thus the extreme amount of cry babys and liberal bleeding hearts today, not to mention the rise in various birth defects and mental issues ?

"What is natural is not necessarily right" ? I just dont know where your going with this. I dont know if your saying being straight and functional may not be right, just normal. If being a boy that feels he needs to be a girl is right and "normal" ? If we can deny that (some) wanting to pound on a transgender is undeniably wrong but may indeed be a natural instinct at play ?

See Im getting shit here from "the few" about the poor battered girlyboy. What about the kids that didnt like it, rejected it naturally and now have no life ? So we have a bruised up gender confused mutation and X number of presumably otherwise normal kids in jail.... great! So whom are we feeling sorry for ? Gee let me see if I can think of away to avoid this problem.... gee let me think... how is it and has it been since the beginning of time that a person avoids conflict.... still thinking.... its gonna come to me soon.... just give me a little more time.... shit, its on the tip of my tongue but I just cant spit it out.... oh well I give up

A handful of liberally minded people keep rehasing the same arguements against "razoredge" but you do not represent the majority of the human race and have not presented a good arguement yourselves... other than you have a gut feeling that it is wrong to reject a boy all made up like a girl, which is so weak its pathatic... and that it is wrong to beat on them which is so obvious that it need not be stated. Yet you are unwilling to look at why this happens... why any of it happens and accept that its been going on since the beginning of time and the majority is not liable to make the sacrifice. Little Johnny can take it on the chin, suck it up and not make a spectical of himself when he is in the volatile, impressionable, raging hormone and somewhat insane teenage years. School is for education not social statements. He can become the leading waah spokesperson for the gay rights movements after hes all "grown up".... Lord knows we need more distractive self focused activists........ nary shall we look at the big picture and face the truely hard tasks at hand... so much easier to cry for the pitiful than percieve how it happens and move on to more worthy quests

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Mr. Keen observer of human nature and history, in this thread you've denied findings indicating that homoerotic behaviour occurs in animals, and you've completely disregarded historical and cross-cultural differences in opinion on the topic. You keep talking about what is natural based on your weak understanding of that science and history. And after all that, you've yet to explain WHY transgenderism is immoral or harmful. Because it's not 'normal'? How does that hurt you or society as a whole? What separates western culture from all others is that we don't automatically condemn what may disgust us.

 

[razoredge]

Mr Dull comprehender of what other people write. Where did I say anything about morals ? Why should I be concerned about "cross cultural" differences in opinion ? Now Im supposed to let them do my thinking for me too ? Whos that again ? Thailand ? Ya OK! Ignored historical occurences ? So now you think I believe perversion is new to mankind ? Ya OK again.... but I must remember... Im the one that... hows that go ? .... wants to go back to the dark ages ???

Animals and erotic in the same sentence is laughable but believe what you will... you have your monkeys but never said whether others species of monkeys carried on the same... maybe some of us decended from different kinds of monkeys Then of course there is the extremely erotic fruit fly... I've been trying to find me some fruit fly porno to see if I might be aroused. wasnt there something about those monkeys masterbating their young ? More modern culture we should soon be adapting ? Hey lets try pedifilia while were at it, that is normal in specific cross cultures and after all we are the all excepting "western culture"

No its not normal, if it were we'd all have girly boys in our family. How does it hurt society... its an embarrassment for starters, then it rubs off on the young and easily influenced, those with internal termoil, seeking any form of acceptance they can find, or any form of attention they can garner.

"What separates western culture from all others is that we don't automatically condemn what may disgust us."

thats your version or the sugar coated version some liberal school teacher crammed down your throat... but my understanding from all this is that the primitive cultures of Thailand and some species of monkeys are far more advanced than our "western culture"

Now I sit and wonder why we didnt let Hitler be himself ? Why we tried to stop the north of Korea and Vietnam from doing their thing ? why we got so bent out of shape over Jonestown. Why do we raise our children and use the word no rather than just let them go be wild ? We are all so accepting.

Furthermore to try to keep drilling it into those involved with impermeable low comprehension skills my only concern is that cross dressing girly boys are kept out of our school systems and if someone wants to preach educating our youth on the homosexual and tranny life style they go the full distance and leave the sugar coating up to Mommy when the horrified normal children arrive home from school, scarred for life. Then we'll see just how socially excepting our "western culture" is.....

 

[razoredge]

I've just decided I want to try "gay chubby dating"... not that I mean to imply the gay community is in the recuiting business... after all everywhere else I go on the internet (when not seeking out gay topics because Im actually an envious homophobe) first thing
that pops up on the computer is where to find cheap hoes :Smokin:

[shrugs shoulders and walks away proudly calling a spade a spade]

 

[waif]

I would really like to talk to one to find the motivations for why they feel the way they do. To me, I think it is something that is environmental, which is internalized. Something like penis envy for the female trans gender or the way in which the world perceives woman, for the male. The emotions people feel inside, that they are identifying as the opposite are to me, delusions as was previously stated. The emotions one feels are theirs and theirs alone and have no relevance to their sex. They feel good putting on womens clothes because they have conditioned themselves that way. If they were to lose all there memory and told that they are a male/woman, which they actually are, then I am certain that they would act in accordance. How is a man who is trans gender even able to identify himself as a female when he is not a female and knows not what it is like to be one? To me, they only have convinced themselves either consciously or unconsciously over time to think this way. They want to look like women because they like the way women look, the culture that women have, and the status of women in the culture. It may even be a phobia of being the sex that they were born into. And the active avoidance of that phobia would be to become as much like the opposite as possible.

I would really like to know how they decide and when.

Well said, I agree very much.
After some consideration, the utility of this discussion given the absence of any actual transgender people (or even openly gay people) is questionable.

Its really not complicated, there is something wrong in their heads as well in some instances in the way they developed in the womb.

Sorry, I wasn't aware you were able to see through a woman's flesh into her uterus in order to watch as her mutant baby develops incorrectly.

It is a mutation same as any other mutation.

*gasp*
The two are as one!

They can do as they please with their life once they have one but when in public schools funded by tax payers they can tow the line and stay in line, just like everyother child in school with picular behavioral problems is expected to.

I still don't understand why you consider this a behavioral problem. People are allowed to express individuality.

Then transgendered people are no different than millions upon millions of (non-transgendered) Americans who suffer from anxiety/personality disorders, phobias, depression, etc. Not to mention pretty much everyone at some point during their adolescence.

Good point.

Why, because they're personal choice of dress/orientation might offend someone? Then what, someone is offended by gay kids so we put restrictions on "gayness?" "Johnny, go to time-out for being a f*****!"
Where does that end? Other than with schools full of blue-eyed, blonde-haired Hitler youth poster kids?

Don't bother, I've been confronting him on this point for 3 pages, all he does is keep restating the same BS.

All irrevelent exagerations of no point.

Nice attempt at a sweeping dismissal. Unfortunately, she's right on every point.

First I never needed science to tell me when someone aint right in the head, nor do I need science to determine if some feminine boy wasnt delivered the proper supply of chromosomes. Nor do I need science to explain to me that we have female and male species for damn good reason and that it is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex

[imagine southern accent]
And I don't need science to explain to me that the earth is round when I can see perfectly well it's flat! And I don't need science to explain to me that the earth moves around the sun when it's damn obvious that the earth isn't moving! And I don't need science to explain that we all descended from apes when I know for a fact that we were created by our lord and savior Jesus Christ and neither do you, because it's all written down for you in the Good Book!

Seriously, science > you.

"millions upon millions of (non-transgendered) Americans who suffer from anxiety/personality disorders, phobias, depression, etc."
Millions upon millions ? Oh really ! I suppose that came from a non bias book or perhaps a promotional pamphlet from our precious psychology community

Are you a Scientologist or something? You consistently refuse to accept scientific fact, especially when it's related to psychology.
It's a fact that millions of Americans suffer from said disorders, including an estimated 40% of all homeless people.

Lets say its someone with a shoe fetish.... are they bringing their hundred pairs of shoes to school each day ?

First off, a shoe fetish is not a mental disorder. It's considered a psychosexual disorder, but does not require treatment. Secondly, transexuals do not get off on crossdressing. It's how they feel comfortable.

Lets say its one of the depressive types.... are they parading around infront of our school children as a boy dressed in girls cloths ?

Sadly, there are a lot of emo kids wearing girls jeans and shirts.

I highly doubt the percentage of "trandgenders" even equals one per school system

This is irrelevant, but you're wrong about that.

they can make the sacrifice not the normal children nor their families need be concerned if some wack job is going to rub off on and influence their young kids.

What fucking sacrifice do the "normal" kids make?

There are many things our school systems need to tighten up on, this liberal ass bullshit that has taken over our school systems is garbage, undermining morals and family structure everday faster than parents can straighten it out.

First off, we need to nip this "evolution" bullshit in the bud. More like "evilution", I say!. Also, what are these damn my pals doing in our schools, lounging on our street corners, staring at our daughters! Back to where they came from, I say!

If homosexuality occurs in nature is it not "natural?"

No! It is the work of deviant animals attempting to obstruct the work of god!

Since you want to split hairs, are you saying that there are not millions of people in America suffering from those disorders? Perhaps you can support that with documentation from a far more reliable source than a "book" or a "pamphlet?"

Don't bother asking him for facts.

Back to the topic at hand, you claimed that "Its not normal to be uncomfortable in ones own skin." But, as I stated previously, this is far from exclusive to transgendered people. So, again I ask, are people with personality disorders or who are depressed, etc., also "not normal?"

While I think that there's a distinction between identity disorders and paranoia and anxiety, I think this is a valid point.
Also, who is normal? No one. Everyone is abnormal in some way.

Why would depressed people necessarily be predisposed to cross-dress and/or be transgendered?

I think he means emos.
The opposite is true, though - transgendered people have a much higher rate of depression and suicide, and I don't find it a stretch to say that the blame for that lies with our society.

But, so long as they weren't engaging in any inapproriate sexual behavoirs with or around their students (or coworkers, etc.), where's the harm?

My thoughts exactly, but apparently it's so blindingly obvious that he can't be bothered to enlighten us.

Probably so, as most people don't realize that they are transgendered or choose to transition until several years after the completion puberty (i.e., after they would be out of the public education system).

Each school system is gonna have a couple thousand kids. There will be way more than one transgendered kid.

Well, since transgenderism isn't contagious and can't "rub off" on anyone, why should transgendered people not be allowed to express their choosen indentity at school?

Because they're mutants!

It aint hard, maybe one day you will figure it out

The trick is, first you must accept the lord jesus christ as your personal savior.

Its doesnt

What about those articles I linked you to from reputable scientists stating that it does occur in nature? Seriously, how can you still be denying this?

Yes I am

Then you're wrong.

Depression fits this worse than my example of fetishes. Some one that is infatuated with clothing of the opposite sex has a fetish amounst other things.

They aren't obsessed with that clothing. They feel that it is natural for them to wear it. How hard is this to comprehend?

No... other personality disorders are not normal, I mention people that like to kill people, keep them in their freezer and eat pieces here and there... nope aint normal. Sure abnormalities vary by degrees but just call a spade a spade and stop beating around the bush

Abnormalities differ by degrees...I should hope so. I was wondering if my ADHD was identical to Ed Gein's psychoses.

You're being an idiot about this. There is significant variation, and that variation is extremely important. You cannot simply reject science, psychology, and facts just because they don't support your argument.

yes it is, not that I would want to imply that theres any money in it for the psych and drug companies to have us believe we all need a pill and theropy for something + one more

Just because a certain number of doctors engage in unethical practices doesn't mean they're all crooks.

yep, that would be my advise

I'm sure LGBTQ people will be lined up around the corner to ask your advice, seeing as you're so tolerant and discerning.

Well I just figured if they tried it they might snap out of it

Why don't you snap out of being straight? Go have some buttsex. See how it goes. Then maybe you'll realize that the whole ex-gay thing is total bullshit.

A boy dressing as a woman is innappropriate sexual behavior

How is it sexual? Because you insist on laying a sexual connotation on the shape of a piece of cloth.

A girl wrapping her chest down, getting a butch haircut and wearing workboots ???? ...... aint right in the head

Obviously. Of course, the fact that not all women who do that are dykes or transgender (it's a fashion style as well) doesn't enter into it.

So your suggesting more people should give it a try ?

No

or that more of us want to be but are afraid ?

Yes

According to the bleeding hearts on this topic it seems I should be seeing them everywhere I go.... but I have yet to meet one, maybe their all in Vegas ?

A) Actually, there's no reason to expect to be seeing them and
B) I doubt you'd know one if you saw one (if your eyes are as keen as your friend's)

because they are wack jobs but if you really want to know its because school is for getting an education not "expressing choosen indentity"

How come straight kids get to express their identity?

You'll figure it all out one day. I was once a bleeding heart, feel sorry for all the poor souls, a few years of observation got me over it.

Can you stop trying to pull the age thing? It's kind of pathetic, and just makes you seem ignorant.

I really don't like all this line-by-line stuff.
Hopefully my last crushing salvo is enough to end this thread! (not holding my breath)

Sorry. And I doubt it. Nice smiley.

[shrugs shoulders and walks away, ignorance intact, proud to have made sweeping generalizations and contributed to the system of suppression that will eventually result in the suicide of thousands of American teenagers]

FYP

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Mr Dull comprehender of what other people write. Where did I say anything about morals ? Why should I be concerned about "cross cultural" differences in opinion ? Now Im supposed to let them do my thinking for me too ? Whos that again ? Thailand ? Ya OK! Ignored historical occurences ? So now you think I believe perversion is new to mankind ? Ya OK again.... but I must remember... Im the one that... hows that go ? .... wants to go back to the dark ages ???

Some societies are moral and some are perverted? Sounds like moralizing to me. Oh, I comprehend what you're saying. I live in the most conservative part of Canada, where your opinion is the rule. I just think that secular societies are smart enough to leave personal opinions about harmless behaviour out of public discourse. If this means discouraging harassment in schools, so be it. My neighbour can wear a dress, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket. Also, stop using the word 'natural', and using the state of nature as an arguing point if you don't care for the opinions of those who spend their lives studying nature.

Also rofl at the gay chubby thing. I'm honestly ready to agree to disagree, with the knowledge that reality has a liberal bias.

 

[razoredge]

Well said, I agree very much.
After some consideration, the utility of this discussion given the absence of any actual transgender people (or even openly gay people) is questionable.

Even then without science to back them up and actual proof we still couldnt believe a thing now could we ?

Sorry, I wasn't aware you were able to see through a woman's flesh into her uterus in order to watch as her mutant baby develops incorrectly.

Wow, neither was I

*gasp*

Yep, freak of nature

I still don't understand why you consider this a behavioral problem. People are allowed to express individuality.

Buts its primarily an issue with teenagers and those that never grow up

Good point.

I always make good point... do you ?
[laughs at responce long before its petty arrival]

Don't bother, I've been confronting him on this point for 3 pages, all he does is keep restating the same BS.

I've responded to this many times, why turn the tables on me ? Is that a offensive defense to cover up the lack of comprehension skills or displeasure in the fact that not everyone agrees with you ? Naw... its couldnt be

Nice attempt at a sweeping dismissal. Unfortunately, she's right on every point.

She has her points but correctness in the exagerations is impossible... which is not hard for me to see your being in agreement

[imagine southern accent]
And I don't need science to explain to me that the earth is round when I can see perfectly well it's flat! And I don't need science to explain to me that the earth moves around the sun when it's damn obvious that the earth isn't moving! And I don't need science to explain that we all descended from apes when I know for a fact that we were created by our lord and savior Jesus Christ and neither do you, because it's all written down for you in the Good Book!

Cant speak for people from the south but surely after reading this I can easily determine they are smarter and witier then you

Seriously, science > you.

Science is still argueing with itself so seriously... Me>science

Are you a Scientologist or something? You consistently refuse to accept scientific fact, especially when it's related to psychology. It's a fact that millions of Americans suffer from said disorders, including an estimated 40% of all homeless people.

and this "known fact" was presented to you via _ _ _ _ _ ?

First off, a shoe fetish is not a mental disorder. It's considered a psychosexual disorder, but does not require treatment. Secondly, transexuals do not get off on crossdressing. It's how they feel comfortable.

and I am the only one that refuses to accept facts ?

Sadly, there are a lot of emo kids wearing girls jeans and shirts.

What is this, are you admitting to influencial trends existing amounst teens ?

This is irrelevant, but you're wrong about that.

No its not irrelevent... especially if said post I critized from thrashgirl full of exagerations and foolish conclusions was full of good points...

Naturally as a great presenter of facts, you would know Im wrong about this ? Wait thats right, you have presented very little throughout this entire topic. In fact did you ever answer the question I asked about your exposure to an actual transgender ?

What fucking sacrifice do the "normal" kids make?

I've stated it over and over but once again... your comprehension skills are :zombie:

First off, we need to nip this "evolution" bullshit in the bud. More like "evilution", I say!. Also, what are these damn my pals doing in our schools, lounging on our street corners, staring at our daughters! Back to where they came from, I say!

No! It is the work of deviant animals attempting to obstruct the work of god!

relevance only excapes me?

Don't bother asking him for facts.

Really I have supplied many and dont need to be asked.... but where are yours ?

While I think that there's a distinction between identity disorders and paranoia and anxiety, I think this is a valid point.
Also, who is normal? No one. Everyone is abnormal in some way.

Speaking for yourself here ? I know "thousands upon thousands" of people I consider normal.

Identity disorders, paranoia are not normal. anxiety can be caused by several factors, all are illnesses

I think he means emos.
The opposite is true, though - transgendered people have a much higher rate of depression and suicide, and I don't find it a stretch to say that the blame for that lies with our society.

Wouldnt know a "Emo" if I stepped on one

I'm not surprised you would think that its the fault of straight society and not the mental disorder itself

My thoughts exactly, but apparently it's so blindingly obvious that he can't be bothered to enlighten us.

Actually its more like "amusing to watch everyone dance around avoiding the obvious and whats been presented"

Each school system is gonna have a couple thousand kids. There will be way more than one transgendered kid.

wow a couple thousands kids per school... I am living in the dark ages. But this isnt you making a statement on gut feelings is it ?

Because they're mutants!

At last we agree........

The trick is, first you must accept the lord jesus christ as your personal savior.

Not suprised you would need him to think for you as well

What about those articles I linked you to from reputable scientists stating that it does occur in nature? Seriously, how can you still be denying this?

You only linked to some traveling gay animal show which presented its case based on bias to support gay rights activists

Then you're wrong.

No, Im not

They aren't obsessed with that clothing. They feel that it is natural for them to wear it. How hard is this to comprehend?

Thats not the information I've gotten. Hate to break it to you but typically people are comfortable in the clothing they were brought up in. Are you suggesting that Mommys are dressing their male children in girls cloths ? You have the comprehension issues, in fact your entire statement as being carved in stone is silly amusing

Abnormalities differ by degrees...I should hope so. I was wondering if my ADHD was identical to Ed Gein's psychoses.

You're being an idiot about this. There is significant variation, and that variation is extremely important. You cannot simply reject science, psychology, and facts just because they don't support your argument.

Duh, Duh and Duh. This is where I separate between someone with anxioty, depression or ADD from someone wanting to parade around dressed as the opposite sex, thank you for agreeing again and admitting the strong relevence of my point.

I have no idea what science, psychology rejections has to do with the obvious, maybe you needed them to determine this and I didnt Me > science and you

Just because a certain number of doctors engage in unethical practices doesn't mean they're all crooks.

This statement is why I gave the second All I can say is you'll figure it out one day when you've had your fill or propaganda and see the self serving

I'm sure LGBTQ people will be lined up around the corner to ask your advice, seeing as you're so tolerant and discerning.

No they better wait for some scientist to do a study and determine that if you piss people off you get slapped up side the head

Why don't you snap out of being straight? Go have some buttsex. See how it goes. Then maybe you'll realize that the whole ex-gay thing is total bullshit.

I've been on the delivering end and SHE was anatomically correct and loving it... and you know what... I can live with that

How is it sexual? Because you insist on laying a sexual connotation on the shape of a piece of cloth.

I've been awaiting someone to step forward and say that teenagers arent concerned with their sexual appeal... thanks for enlightening me..........

Obviously. Of course, the fact that not all women who do that are dykes or transgender (it's a fashion style as well) doesn't enter into it.

Its not uncommon for you to write alittle and say nothing but this one really takes the cake

No

are you sure ?

Yes

are you sure ?

A) Actually, there's no reason to expect to be seeing them and

This is good because they dont belong in our public school systems

B) I doubt you'd know one if you saw one (if your eyes are as keen as your friend's)

your interpretation of the story continues to amuse me

How come straight kids get to express their identity?

Normal straight kids get up go to school and dont try to stand out in the crowd nor do they live in an identity crisis, striving for the need for "personal identity" because they are aware that they carry their personal idenity with them everywhere they go... its not in their cloths, its not in some fashion trend... it lives inside them and they are comfortable

Can you stop trying to pull the age thing? It's kind of pathetic, and just makes you seem ignorant.

Oh, sorry, I didnt mean to offend your sensitivities but in many instances it is overly obvious that some ignorances or misconceptions applied here are from a lack of experience. But you will understand this one day.

Sorry. And I doubt it. Nice smiley.

Doubt is a good thing, it leaves one free from disappointment when reality slaps them upside the face.

FYP

SFIEMIBB

 

[razoredge]

Some societies are moral and some are perverted? Sounds like moralizing to me. Oh, I comprehend what you're saying. I live in the most conservative part of Canada, where your opinion is the rule. I just think that secular societies are smart enough to leave personal opinions about harmless behaviour out of public discourse. If this means discouraging harassment in schools, so be it. My neighbour can wear a dress, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket. Also, stop using the word 'natural', and using the state of nature as an arguing point if you don't care for the opinions of those who spend their lives studying nature.

Also rofl at the gay chubby thing. I'm honestly ready to agree to disagree, with the knowledge that reality has a liberal bias.

No, I used that in reference to these cross cultures that apparently accept transgender openly also seem to have a different code of ethics from what you call western culture and the point of interest that they have had a very secluded lifestyle until recent years. So I think that holds great relevance... especially if someone wants to pull that acceptence card for transgenders while ignoring other very important facts of said cross culture.

Harassment is discouraged in school and as I stated many times, not enough, there is no control in schools, they are basically a nut house. However, lets say someone always starts trouble and then there is gonna be someone thats a finisher. Both are going to be pulled to the side and told to knock it off. This is how I feel about girlyboys in school... for christs sake get over it. Its very easy to avoid confrontation, surely you have figured that out by now ? THIS IS NOT PERSONAL OPINION ITS A FACT OF LIFE

My neighbor CAN NOT WHERE A DRESS, I simply wont have it.

Maybe you should stop denying what is the natural norm in nature and believe that I have spent my life studying nature, so I'm allowed to dispute bias presentation as reality

Im glad you mentioned reality because thats what Im all about, Im far from the bias of the liberal and conservative camps. Thats why I know a freak show when I see it, someone that "aint right in the head" when I see it, an attention whore when I see it, recogonize that there is money involved in the science, psychology and the medical industrys, as well as in which way a governing body sways and am well aware of bias and refuse to be swayed or distracted and have no problem excepting the fact that if you dont look for trouble it wont find you.

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

However, lets say someone always starts trouble and then there is gonna be someone thats a finisher. Both are going to be pulled to the side and told to knock it off. This is how I feel about girlyboys in school... for christs sake get over it. Its very easy to avoid confrontation, surely you have figured that out by now ? THIS IS NOT PERSONAL OPINION ITS A FACT OF LIFE

IS DOES NOT IMPLY OUGHT! Why do you post on a philosophy board? Slavery was a fact of life for centuries. Repression of women was a fact of life for centuries. If everyone thought like you we would still be living in caves. Nonviolently resolving confrontations is the hallmark of democracy.

My neighbor CAN NOT WHERE A DRESS, I simply wont have it.

I can't tell if you're serious here or not, and honestly I don't know how you can expect to be taken seriously on a philosophy board with such atrocious spelling. Cannot "where" a dress? I know you think it's pointless nit-picking, but when you're talking about huge society-spanning issues it really doesn't help your case.

Maybe you should stop denying what is the natural norm in nature and believe that I have spent my life studying nature, so I'm allowed to dispute bias presentation as reality

You don't know even the very basics of biology, as your previous mentions of "amounts of chromosomes" and "species of female and male" show. Scientists are put through the ringer when a new idea comes about, that's the beautiful thing about it. Biased accounts could not have survived if they contradict evidence, because there are a thousand other biologists out there who would dispute it.

Im glad you mentioned reality because thats what Im all about, Im far from the bias of the liberal and conservative camps. Thats why I know a freak show when I see it, someone that "aint right in the head" when I see it, an attention whore when I see it, recogonize that there is money involved in the science, psychology and the medical industrys, as well as in which way a governing body sways and am well aware of bias and refuse to be swayed or distracted and have no problem excepting the fact that if you dont look for trouble it wont find you.

Bullshit. Where is all this gay money coming from to convince psychologists and biologists to forge false reports? Going back to my example of Alan Turing, was he looking for trouble when he privately committed homosexual acts? Were the southern blacks looking for trouble just living their lives for the better part of the last century?

 

[razoredge]

damn... you are getting desperate

first we are talking about how no conclusions can be made because "science" has no proof and me saying I dont care, dont need any, and can think for myself.... next thing I know were sitting in a cave somewhere and Im tired of waiting for you to invent the wheel so I do it myself. Then you get jelous and pissy pointing out that I have a typo in my wheel sales promotion add. So I get tired of your bitchin and leave... now you automatically assume that because I left I must have set out to find some slaves... naturally because I need help building the wheels and after all your worthless and just sit there... still bitchin because I didnt consult science before I set off on my adventure... all the while I'm just around the back of the big rock having good natural fun with my woman doing the satisfied pout.........

enjoy, surely you are smarter than my current impression

 

[thrashgirl]

damn... you are getting desperate

first we are talking about how no conclusions can be made because "science" has no proof and me saying I dont care, dont need any, and can think for myself.... next thing I know were sitting in a cave somewhere and Im tired of waiting for you to invent the wheel so I do it myself. Then you get jelous and pissy pointing out that I have a typo in my wheel sales promotion add. So I get tired of your bitchin and leave... now you automatically assume that because I left I must have set out to find some slaves... naturally because I need help building the wheels and after all your worthless and just sit there... still bitchin because I didnt consult science before I set off on my adventure... all the while I'm just around the back of the big rock having good natural fun with my woman doing the satisfied pout.........

enjoy, surely you are smarter than my current impression

"I'm tired people pestering me with silly, fact-based rebuttals, so I'm just gonna take my ball and go home."

 

[razoredge]

"I'm tired people pestering me with silly, fact-based rebuttals, so I'm just gonna take my ball and go home."

Fact based rebuttals ? Where are those ? Once you locate them how about showing me where mine are not.....

 

[razoredge]

Incidently... I never walk away and never sway but you are still making assumptions....... even with more than enough evidence of that fact

seems the evasive ones are those who fail to answer all the questions I asked and fail to put together a honest scenerio of the inner workings of the human mind that leads to the conflict involved with this topic.

Anyone can get all teary eyed and say... well its just not fair