Transgender

[razoredge]

Like yeah... just a view of an older womans face after she has had it streached is a very good indication of some lack of stability in ones self. I wont bother pulling the Micheal Jackson card... oops I just did didnt I ?

There are people that think killing people and eating them for diner is perfectly acceptable, its a mental illness.

Im a wonderin... just how large was Tailands gene pool over the centuries ? Wonder if centuries of seclusion with this kind of trans thing might add rise to its frequence and acceptability ?

See... I get wailed for somehow wanting to go back to the dark ages and then "evidence" comes forward for the case of societies accepting trans genders that are extremely primitive and secluded.

The ponderance of it all......

 

[Norsemaiden]

Thrashgirl - just out of interest - imagine you woke up tomorrow and had been turned into a teen age boy (and your hormones would be a bit different too don't forget). Assuming, that right now you are not yearning to actually be a boy, what would you do? Would you want to get operations on yourself, or would you just try and deal with the situation by adjusting your mental state?

Myself I wouldn't be at all happy about it at first, and perhaps adjust somewhat in time, but I am sure I wouldn't contemplate surgery.

The point I am making is that wanting surgery to change to a drastically different persona is at best a silly indulgence and at worst a mentally deranged obsession. There's no need for it at all. They need psychiatric therapy, if it's even worth that expense.

 

[forbidden fruit]

Gotta agree with thrashgirl here..
PLUS, is there really much difference from someone born with a congenital health issue seeking treatment, even surgery, to better their position, than there is for someone who identifies more with the 'other' gender wanting to better theirs?
Bearing in mind, the 'bettering of one's position' is a subjective one, & that no-one can truly refute that someone with gender dysphoria would be better (or worse) off seeking reassignment surgery, or should or shouldn't contemplate it.
So should those born with any other health issues not seek treatment because they were born that way, & should therefore, just deal with it?
Or does this rationale only apply to transgender issues?
And if so, why?

 

[Norsemaiden]

Gotta agree with thrashgirl here..
PLUS, is there really much difference from someone born with a congenital health issue seeking treatment, even surgery, to better their position, than there is for someone who identifies more with the 'other' gender wanting to better theirs?
Bearing in mind, the 'bettering of one's position' is a subjective one, & that no-one can truly refute that someone with gender dysphoria would be better (or worse) off seeking reassignment surgery, or should or shouldn't contemplate it.
So should those born with any other health issues not seek treatment because they were born that way, & should therefore, just deal with it?
Or does this rationale only apply to transgender issues?
And if so, why?

Should taxpayers fund this? Health issues are another matter entirely from psychological obsessions that someone demands an operation for.
And please think of all the many more worthy causes that the money could be spent on, since you seem to be a liberal.

 

[Vossyrus]

^
I think you're making the assumption that all transgenders seek surgery. This isn't at all true.

 

[waif]

Call me old fashioned, but I still prefer it when women don't wear pants

Even the really tight ones?

and this was a great cop out, but prolly had no better way to cover up the lack of ability to comprehend, even though all the scatered replies still made it obvious

Actually, no, I was hoping you'd realize that the view you had expressed is general considered a relic of a time when a black man could be beaten to death for looking at a white woman.

and goddamnit, thanks to this thread, every time i click on the philosopher link, i'm greeted with a gay jock exercise advertisement banner...two of them sometimes!!!!

Those were there before. Don't blame me. It's probably because people keep calling each other faggots.

There are people that think killing people and eating them for diner is perfectly acceptable, its a mental illness.

In what way is this relevant?

Im a wonderin... just how large was Tailands gene pool over the centuries ? Wonder if centuries of seclusion with this kind of trans thing might add rise to its frequence and acceptability ?

I don't think that inbreeding is the source of this. Sorry, but you're not getting off that easy.

See... I get wailed for somehow wanting to go back to the dark ages and then "evidence" comes forward for the case of societies accepting trans genders that are extremely primitive and secluded.

Yes. Sounds good to me.

Thrashgirl - just out of interest - imagine you woke up tomorrow and had been turned into a teen age boy (and your hormones would be a bit different too don't forget). Assuming, that right now you are not yearning to actually be a boy, what would you do? Would you want to get operations on yourself, or would you just try and deal with the situation by adjusting your mental state?

Myself I wouldn't be at all happy about it at first, and perhaps adjust somewhat in time, but I am sure I wouldn't contemplate surgery.

The point I am making is that wanting surgery to change to a drastically different persona is at best a silly indulgence and at worst a mentally deranged obsession. There's no need for it at all. They need psychiatric therapy, if it's even worth that expense.

I think this is a very good point, and I think I would probably react the same way.

^
I think you're making the assumption that all transgenders seek surgery. This isn't at all true.

Yes. This is a fairly important point, but her point is still relevant.

 

[razoredge]

Even the really tight ones?

Actually, no, I was hoping you'd realize that the view you had expressed is general considered a relic of a time when a black man could be beaten to death for looking at a white woman. Those were there before. Don't blame me. It's probably because people keep calling each other faggots. In what way is this relevant? I don't think that inbreeding is the source of this. Sorry, but you're not getting off that easy. Yes. Sounds good to me. I think this is a very good point, and I think I would probably react the same way. Yes. This is a fairly important point, but her point is still relevant.

^ Nothing like going out on a limb.......... :zombie:

 

[thrashgirl]

Thrashgirl - just out of interest - imagine you woke up tomorrow and had been turned into a teen age boy (and your hormones would be a bit different too don't forget). Assuming, that right now you are not yearning to actually be a boy, what would you do? Would you want to get operations on yourself, or would you just try and deal with the situation by adjusting your mental state?

Myself I wouldn't be at all happy about it at first, and perhaps adjust somewhat in time, but I am sure I wouldn't contemplate surgery.

The point I am making is that wanting surgery to change to a drastically different persona is at best a silly indulgence and at worst a mentally deranged obsession. There's no need for it at all. They need psychiatric therapy, if it's even worth that expense.

I wasn't arguing one way or the other (for or against surgery). I was just pointing out that to criticize transgendered people because they undergo gender reassignment is unfair because only a tiny percentage acctually have such a surgery.

 

[thrashgirl]

Should taxpayers fund this? Health issues are another matter entirely from psychological obsessions that someone demands an operation for.
And please think of all the many more worthy causes that the money could be spent on, since you seem to be a liberal.

In the U.S., tax money DOESN'T fund gender reassignment, cosmetic or any other elective surgerical procedure that I know of.

 

[razoredge]

I dont believe the insurance companies do either

but we were not simply talking about surgery, just because someone mentions those that also have surgery might have some mental or emotional issues, doesnt mean we need to get all distracted. There is no doubt many take female hormones and/or have chest implants.

I dont care what "century" or plantet anyone comes from... all that is just plain weird and indicates some form of mental illness.

 

[thrashgirl]

I dont believe the insurance companies do either

but we were not simply talking about surgery, just because someone mentions those that also have surgery might have some mental or emotional issues, doesnt mean we need to get all distracted. There is no doubt many take female hormones and/or have chest implants.

I dont care what "century" or plantet anyone comes from... all that is just plain weird and indicates some form of mental illness.

No, most insurace companies won't cover it.

My point was that implying that someone is mentally ill for wanting to undergo an elective cosmetic procedure would mean that a lot of (non-transgendered) people would be mentally ill, as well. And that a very, very small percentage of transgendered people actually have gender reassignment surgery, anyway.

And why is "all that...just plain weird?" What's weird about taking hormones? Lots of non-transgendered people do it. And lots of non-transgendered people get implants.

 

[Silver Incubus]

I would really like to talk to one to find the motivations for why they feel the way they do. To me, I think it is something that is environmental, which is internalized. Something like penis envy for the female trans gender or the way in which the world perceives woman, for the male. The emotions people feel inside, that they are identifying as the opposite are to me, delusions as was previously stated. The emotions one feels are theirs and theirs alone and have no relevance to their sex. They feel good putting on womens clothes because they have conditioned themselves that way. If they were to lose all there memory and told that they are a male/woman, which they actually are, then I am certain that they would act in accordance. How is a man who is trans gender even able to identify himself as a female when he is not a female and knows not what it is like to be one? To me, they only have convinced themselves either consciously or unconsciously over time to think this way. They want to look like women because they like the way women look, the culture that women have, and the status of women in the culture. It may even be a phobia of being the sex that they were born into. And the active avoidance of that phobia would be to become as much like the opposite as possible.

I would really like to know how they decide and when.

 

[thrashgirl]

I would really like to talk to one to find the motivations for why they feel the way they do. To me, I think it is something that is environmental, which is internalized. Something like penis envy for the female trans gender or the way in which the world perceives woman, for the male. The emotions people feel inside, that they are identifying as the opposite are to me, delusions as was previously stated. The emotions one feels are theirs and theirs alone and have no relevance to their sex. They feel good putting on womens clothes because they have conditioned themselves that way. If they were to lose all there memory and told that they are a male/woman, which they actually are, then I am certain that they would act in accordance. How is a man who is trans gender even able to identify himself as a female when he is not a female and knows not what it is like to be one? To me, they only have convinced themselves either consciously or unconsciously over time to think this way. They want to look like women because they like the way women look, the culture that women have, and the status of women in the culture. It may even be a phobia of being the sex that they were born into. And the active avoidance of that phobia would be to become as much like the opposite as possible.

I would really like to know how they decide and when.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

[razoredge]

Its really not complicated, there is something wrong in their heads as well in some instances in the way they developed in the womb. It is a mutation same as any other mutation. Its not normal to be uncomfortable in ones own skin so to speak. It is what it is and cant be sugar coated to a clear mind. They can do as they please with their life once they have one but when in public schools funded by tax payers they can tow the line and stay in line, just like everyother child in school with picular behavioral problems is expected to.

 

[thrashgirl]

Its really not complicated, there is something wrong in their heads as well in some instances in the way they developed in the womb. It is a mutation same as any other mutation.

There is no reputable science to support that.

Its not normal to be uncomfortable in ones own skin so to speak.

Then transgendered people are no different than millions upon millions of (non-transgendered) Americans who suffer from anxiety/personality disorders, phobias, depression, etc. Not to mention pretty much everyone at some point during their adolescence.

when in public schools funded by tax payers they can tow the line and stay in line, just like everyother child in school with picular behavioral problems is expected to.

Why, because they're personal choice of dress/orientation might offend someone? Then what, someone is offended by gay kids so we put restrictions on "gayness?" "Johnny, go to time-out for being a f*****!"

Where does that end? Other than with schools full of blue-eyed, blonde-haired Hitler youth poster kids?

 

[Silver Incubus]

I couldn't disagree more.

So what exactly do you disagree with. That they are delusional or that it is environmental conditioning that they internalize.

For the examples you give in rebuttal to razorsedge, although I don't fully agree with his interpretations, you really are saying that it is in their head much like anxiety and depression etc. Im sure if they were hypnotized and you were able to talk with their unconscious mind, then you'd have a better idea to why they think they are the opposite sex rather than just "that is the way they were born" bullshit.

There is a way to get rid of mental disorders by guiding one through their mind, and finding out the causes.

 

[razoredge]

There is no reputable science to support that. Then transgendered people are no different than millions upon millions of (non-transgendered) Americans who suffer from anxiety/personality disorders, phobias, depression, etc. Not to mention pretty much everyone at some point during their adolescence. Why, because they're personal choice of dress/orientation might offend someone? Then what, someone is offended by gay kids so we put restrictions on "gayness?" "Johnny, go to time-out for being a f*****!" Where does that end? Other than with schools full of blue-eyed, blonde-haired Hitler youth poster kids?

All irrevelent exagerations of no point.

First I never needed science to tell me when someone aint right in the head, nor do I need science to determine if some feminine boy wasnt delivered the proper supply of chromosomes. Nor do I need science to explain to me that we have female and male species for damn good reason and that it is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex... NOT the same sex and certainly not attracted to the opposite sex in so much as wanting to look liker one........ HELLO !

"millions upon millions of (non-transgendered) Americans who suffer from anxiety/personality disorders, phobias, depression, etc."
Millions upon millions ? Oh really ! I suppose that came from a non bias book or perhaps a promotional pamphlet from our precious psychology community. But lets assume its so... are these other troubled people trying to be someone they are not ? Lets say its someone with a shoe fetish.... are they bringing their hundred pairs of shoes to school each day ? Lets say its one of the depressive types.... are they parading around infront of our school children as a boy dressed in girls cloths ? I highly doubt the percentage of "trandgenders" even equals one per school system..... they can make the sacrifice not the normal children nor their families need be concerned if some wack job is going to rub off on and influence their young kids.

There are many things our school systems need to tighten up on, this liberal ass bullshit that has taken over our school systems is garbage, undermining morals and family structure everday faster than parents can straighten it out.

sorry, that has nothing to do with Hitler poster children lame

 

[thrashgirl]

So what exactly do you disagree with. That they are delusional or that it is environmental conditioning that they internalize.

Basically, I disagree with the belief that transgendered people are somehow just acting/exaggerating and that they can be "cured," as you seem to imply.

For the examples you give in rebuttal to razorsedge, although I don't fully agree with his interpretations, you really are saying that it is in their head much like anxiety and depression etc.

No, what I'm saying is that transgendered people aren't the only people who suffer from feeling "uncomfortable" in their own bodies. I was disagreeing with razoredge's claim that such discomfort is somehow "not normal."

Im sure if they were hypnotized and you were able to talk with their unconscious mind, then you'd have a better idea to why they think they are the opposite sex rather than just "that is the way they were born" bullshit.

There is a way to get rid of mental disorders by guiding one through their mind, and finding out the causes.

Well, I disagree, but its all speculative, anyway.

 

[thrashgirl]

First I never needed science to tell me when someone aint right in the head, nor do I need science to determine if some feminine boy wasnt delivered the proper supply of chromosomes.

So when do you know if someone "aint right in the head?"

Nor do I need science to explain to me that we have female and male species for damn good reason and that it is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex... NOT the same sex and certainly not attracted to the opposite sex in so much as wanting to look liker one........ HELLO !

If homosexuality occurs in nature is it not "natural?"

"millions upon millions of (non-transgendered) Americans who suffer from anxiety/personality disorders, phobias, depression, etc."
Millions upon millions ? Oh really ! I suppose that came from a non bias book or perhaps a promotional pamphlet from our precious psychology community.

Since you want to split hairs, are you saying that there are not millions of people in America suffering from those disorders? Perhaps you can support that with documentation from a far more reliable source than a "book" or a "pamphlet?"

Back to the topic at hand, you claimed that "Its not normal to be uncomfortable in ones own skin." But, as I stated previously, this is far from exclusive to transgendered people. So, again I ask, are people with personality disorders or who are depressed, etc., also "not normal?"

But lets assume its so...

Since it's such a stretch to do so.

are these other troubled people trying to be someone they are not ?

In a lot of cases, yes.

Lets say its someone with a shoe fetish.... are they bringing their hundred pairs of shoes to school each day ?

Legitamate (i.e., diagnosed) gender dysphoria isn't a "fetish," like cross dressing or shoes or whatever. There are obvious reasons that someone with a shoe or any other kind of fetish would choose not to engage in sexual behavior specific to that fetish or in general at their workplace, be it a school or anywhere else. Someone who gets sexual pleasure from cross dressing would, along those lines, likely find it advisable not to cross dress at work. But your statement incorrectly equates transgenderism with a "fetish." The two are simply not the same.

Lets say its one of the depressive types.... are they parading around infront of our school children as a boy dressed in girls cloths ?

Why would depressed people necessarily be predisposed to cross-dress and/or be transgendered?

But, so long as they weren't engaging in any inapproriate sexual behavoirs with or around their students (or coworkers, etc.), where's the harm?

I highly doubt the percentage of "trandgenders" even equals one per school system.....

Probably so, as most people don't realize that they are transgendered or choose to transition until several years after the completion puberty (i.e., after they would be out of the public education system).

they can make the sacrifice not the normal children nor their families need be concerned if some wack job is going to rub off on and influence their young kids.

Well, since transgenderism isn't contagious and can't "rub off" on anyone, why should transgendered people not be allowed to express their choosen indentity at school?

 

[razoredge]

So when do you know if someone "aint right in the head?"

It aint hard, maybe one day you will figure it out

If homosexuality occurs in nature is it not "natural?"

Its doesnt

Since you want to split hairs, are you saying that there are not millions of people in America suffering from those disorders? Perhaps you can support that with documentation from a far more reliable source than a "book" or a "pamphlet?"

Yes I am

Back to the topic at hand, you claimed that "Its not normal to be uncomfortable in ones own skin." But, as I stated previously, this is far from exclusive to transgendered people. So, again I ask, are people with personality disorders or who are depressed, etc., also "not normal?"

Depression fits this worse than my example of fetishes. Some one that is infatuated with clothing of the opposite sex has a fetish amounst other things. Depression can be caused by daily life but in many cases it is from a compilation of bad events. No... other personality disorders are not normal, I mention people that like to kill people, keep them in their freezer and eat pieces here and there... nope aint normal. Sure abnormalities vary by degrees but just call a spade a spade and stop beating around the bush

Since it's such a stretch to do so.

yes it is, not that I would want to imply that theres any money in it for the psych and drug companies to have us believe we all need a pill and theropy for something + one more

In a lot of cases, yes.

Well at least you admit transgenders have problems

Legitamate (i.e., diagnosed) gender dysphoria isn't a "fetish," like cross dressing or shoes or whatever. There are obvious reasons that someone with a shoe or any other kind of fetish would choose not to engage in sexual behavior specific to that fetish or in general at their workplace, be it a school or anywhere else. Someone who gets sexual pleasure from cross dressing would, along those lines, likely find it advisable not to cross dress at work. But your statement incorrectly equates transgenderism with a "fetish." The two are simply not the same.

yep, that would be my advise

Why would depressed people necessarily be predisposed to cross-dress and/or be transgendered?

Well I just figured if they tried it they might snap out of it

But, so long as they weren't engaging in any inapproriate sexual behavoirs with or around their students (or coworkers, etc.), where's the harm?

A boy dressing as a woman is innappropriate sexual behavior. A girl wrapping her chest down, getting a butch haircut and wearing workboots ???? ...... aint right in the head

Probably so, as most people don't realize that they are transgendered or choose to transition until several years after the completion puberty (i.e., after they would be out of the public education system).

So your suggesting more people should give it a try ? or that more of us want to be but are afraid ? According to the bleeding hearts on this topic it seems I should be seeing them everywhere I go.... but I have yet to meet one, maybe their all in Vegas ?

Well, since transgenderism isn't contagious and can't "rub off" on anyone, why should transgendered people not be allowed to express their choosen indentity at school?

because they are wack jobs but if you really want to know its because school is for getting an education not "expressing choosen indentity"

Drugs arent contagious either.............

You'll figure it all out one day. I was once a bleeding heart, feel sorry for all the poor souls, a few years of observation got me over it.