TS9DX, Engl E530, Decimator G String, DI Box hook-up

[Deathell]

Hi guys, I've been using TSE's 808 and X30 for a long time but I'm dead tired of the CPU load I have on my PC with the string of vst plugin chain.. I feel I can play much better by playing with the whole chain on the lowest latency possible when I compose.. So I decided to get some of that out of the box.

I will be getting an Ibanez TS9DX, ENGL E530, ISP Decimator G String. I know I wouldn't be making this thread if I were to just get the normal Decimator but I'm looking to kill all noise before and after the preamp as well, but I play with tons of high-gain including having the OD pedal dimed. I'm looking forward to rig it up but what is the best way to do it?

Guitar-> TS9DX -> input 1 G-string ->
output 1 G-string -> input on ENGL E530 ->
Line Output ENGL E530 -> input 2 G-String -> output 2 G-string
..and then -> Countryman Type 10 DI Box -> RME Babyface?

Or is it better to..

Guitar -> input 1 G-string -> output 1 G-string -> TS9DX -> input ENGL E530 ..then the rest.

Also what cable do I need for the Line Output from the ENGL E530? Is it the normal mono 1/4" guitar cable? and is it necessary to use -15 or -30 PAD on the DI Box? Thanks.

 

[deLuther]

If you want to record DI, than you should place screamer somewhere later in the chain.
There is one trick possible with e430/e530: you can plug your guitar into say left return input, plug some kind of Y-cable into left line output of e430/e530, one go into the screamer and main input of e430/e530 (maybe with Decimator), second plug into any line input of your interface, overdriven signal can be taken from Mono Output or Right Line output
This trick is possible because these preamps have 1MOhm impedance of returns.

If you just want to record line signal form e530, than DI box is not necessary, preamp already have buffered line outputs with gain control, so you can set appropriate level. Line Outputs are just conventional unbalanced 1/4 TS, no Pad is needed unless you set Output level to maximum.
And, it seems, that you tend to overuse the Decimator

 

[Deathell]

Oh that sounds cool, Thanks for sharing this trick! So by using this trick I would have myself 2 separate signals? A clean DI recording and a screamer+preamp? But by using the Y cable, can that also degrade the audio?

The thought of using a DI box is because want to avoid the coloration of the internal preamp in my audio interface, and by using the instrument input the gain on that thing is always set to 9dB minimum which can't be lowered. But by using the DI Box into the line input on my interface it actually bypasses the preamp by putting the gain at 0.

Overusing the decimator, is that a good or a bad thing?

 

[deLuther]

Why use DI-box for line signal? Just plug buffered output of e530 into interface line input, that`s all.

As for trick, yes, you will have e530 signal along with DI signal, I`m tried myself with e430. Of course if you have Countryman, than you can plug guitar into Type 10, XLR output to your interface (Mic input, of course, not line input) and Thru output into (Decimator)screamer->e530 chain. Maybe this will work better than trick, maybe difference will be less. I`m compared such aproach against my Mic/Instrument pre, that I`m using (Digilab SPM-100), it works very well. This preamp itself (SPM-100) works on par with BSS AR-133 DI-box.

 

[Deathell]

Sorry my bad, I got a little mixed up between line input with mic input

Anyway thanks again! This is brilliant, I will try it out once I get them. So do you think a normal decimator (not the g string) would be enough to silence this rig, just one to put between guitar and screamer? I usually do with gain about 7, hi-mid and treble at 6 on the TSE X30, and on the TSE808 I have the gain at about 3-4, tone at 7, and level at 6.. that has some pretty bad noise.

 

[onqel]

Sorry my bad, I got a little mixed up between line input with mic input

Anyway thanks again! This is brilliant, I will try it out once I get them. So do you think a normal decimator (not the g string) would be enough to silence this rig, just one to put between guitar and screamer? I usually do with gain about 7, hi-mid and treble at 6 on the TSE X30, and on the TSE808 I have the gain at about 3-4, tone at 7, and level at 6.. that has some pretty bad noise.

X30 was the first plugin I ever made and there's some nasty amateur stuff in there to be honest, it's not very accurate and I should update it

 

[Deathell]

Hi Onqel, very nice to see you here.. I'll keep that in mind but anyway I dig all your plugins, please do update them and thanks for all your hard work, they inspired me to start building my tone from it. I would like to see the X50 come to fruition too, I'd gladly pay for them if I have to.

 

[AD Chaos]

I use a 580 and have no need to go through the decimatorG at all. Set the gain to high, but leave the channel selector on clean. That along with a TS as clean boost if needed is more than enough gain you could ever want. Well at least with a real power section/cab. Turning on the lead too is just going to muffle the tone and note definition, you end up with mostly just noise and feedback.

You didn't say what you will use after the preamp..

 

[TheWinterSnow]

You want to go from the guitar into the Decimator, from there, the OD, then the amp, the decimator's gate, then the DI.

As a rule of thumb with sidechain based gates like the decimator g-string or boss NS-2, you want the guitar in to be completely clean, with no effects. And any effects, except the OD, should go after the gate (after the preamp).

Also I would say that unlike what was mentioned earlier, that you still use the DI from the preamp out to the interface's line in becuase typical of vaccuum tubes, even in a cathode follower (buffer) arrangement they still have the output impedance to that of a guitar pickup. The overall effect might not be noticeable or big, but a DI in there and a more proper load will allow for a stronger signal/better output gain of the preamp.

If you want DI's of your clean guitar for later reamping, then you would need another DI box, most DI boxes have a parallel out, that out will then go to your preamp signal chain and the DI's XLR output will go to another instrument channel on your interface.

If you don't want to reamp and just want to record the signal after the preamp then you really don't to worry about splitting the signal.

 

[deLuther]

e430/e530 have buffered line outputs with opamps, no DI is needed.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

You would be right, its been awhile since I looked at the schematics of the e530. Still not sure about output impedance as I didn't look at the specs of the chip that is used. Its also an older schematic when the output was a frequency compensated headphone out so the chip may have changed. Either way that ship could still be high enough to still need a DI, but overall I think the effect would be negligible. If the OP didn't care to spend some extra dough, its always better safe than sorry.

 

[deLuther]

I did not get any problems with my e430, either Mono output (without buffering) or Line Outputs, but prefer the last option, in some cases unbuffered output works not that great. It`s slightly over the top to use DI boxes on everything, even on line signal. Of course, if you already have DI, you can try both ways and judge yourself... maybe I should try plug into Hi-Z of my preamp and compare to it`s line input.

e430 even works good as DI box for recording guitar DI, at least far better than cheap Arts pres
Just plug guitar into the input and use bypass/preamp defeat along with buffered outpupts. Or plug into return and use buffered outputs, which I`m discovered recently.

 

[Deathell]

You didn't say what you will use after the preamp..

I'm using impulses.

 

[Deathell]

You want to go from the guitar into the Decimator, from there, the OD, then the amp, the decimator's gate, then the DI.

As a rule of thumb with sidechain based gates like the decimator g-string or boss NS-2, you want the guitar in to be completely clean, with no effects. And any effects, except the OD, should go after the gate (after the preamp).

Also I would say that unlike what was mentioned earlier, that you still use the DI from the preamp out to the interface's line in becuase typical of vaccuum tubes, even in a cathode follower (buffer) arrangement they still have the output impedance to that of a guitar pickup. The overall effect might not be noticeable or big, but a DI in there and a more proper load will allow for a stronger signal/better output gain of the preamp.

If you want DI's of your clean guitar for later reamping, then you would need another DI box, most DI boxes have a parallel out, that out will then go to your preamp signal chain and the DI's XLR output will go to another instrument channel on your interface.

If you don't want to reamp and just want to record the signal after the preamp then you really don't to worry about splitting the signal.

Yeah I wasn't going to be using DI for reamping at all in the first place, but now that you and Deluther mentioned it, I became interested. So I would actually need another DI box to do it? This is a sketchy signal flow I drew up, I don't know if its right.

..oops I forgot about how the signal would connect to my countryman type 10, but I guess that would be from any of the right or left line out of the engl e530 preamp?

It looks a bit of a hassle with the decimator g string, having to get extra cables to do it and if so I don't plan to cheap out on buying extra cables either.. but it would be better if a normal decimator would be enough to make clean silent recordings by placing it after the guitar before the OD? Since AD Chaos mentions that the ENGL preamps aren't as noisy as I thought it could be?

 

[AD Chaos]

I'm using impulses.

In any case, you don't need a gate with any reasonable amount of gain, unless your PUs are noisy to begin with.

Onqel's X30 model only has the GAIN LO/HI button, but the real preamps also have a CLEAN/LEAD channel selector. The actual preamp is noisy only on the lead channel, but using the clean channel with the gain on high *(both the GAIN button lit and the gain knob up) is more than enough. Even more so if you use a TS.

I haven't used a 530 and they're supposed to have less gain, but judging from YT vids, they're just fine. I don't use the pre with impulses, I could never make it sound good like that (to the point I once thought my pre was defective).

So, bear in mind I'm referring to using the pre with a power amp and a mic'ed cab.

 

[deLuther]

Crunch channel on maximum gain with TS in front can give highgain with another flavour than Heavy Lead channel, that`s right.

I don't use the pre with impulses, I could never make it sound good like that (to the point I once thought my pre was defective).

Strongly depends on used impulse, can be good.
For example: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...dology-test-sample-impulses.html#post10475822
I was lazy that day so did not use my e430

 

[AD Chaos]

No, it wasn't that deLuther, I used s-preshigh, but I was having serious problems with the gain. Must have been an impedance thing or something, I don't know.. Haven't tried that in ages, might give it another go.

 

[deLuther]

Impulses itself can not cause less gain, maybe you should blame something other.
Applying impulses is more like EQ with large number of bands.

 

[AD Chaos]

Yeah I'm well aware, that's why I mentioned it could have been a wiring issue or something else

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Yeah I wasn't going to be using DI for reamping at all in the first place, but now that you and Deluther mentioned it, I became interested. So I would actually need another DI box to do it? This is a sketchy signal flow I drew up, I don't know if its right.

..oops I forgot about how the signal would connect to my countryman type 10, but I guess that would be from any of the right or left line out of the engl e530 preamp?

It looks a bit of a hassle with the decimator g string, having to get extra cables to do it and if so I don't plan to cheap out on buying extra cables either.. but it would be better if a normal decimator would be enough to make clean silent recordings by placing it after the guitar before the OD? Since AD Chaos mentions that the ENGL preamps aren't as noisy as I thought it could be?

That wiring scheme is correct.

Guitar > ISP Guitar IN > ISP Guitar OUT > OD Pedal > e530 Guitar IN > e530 FX SEND > ISP Gate IN > ISP Gate OUT > e530 FX RETURN > e530 LINE OUT > Interface LINE IN

Becuase the e530 line out is an active buffered line out, you do not need a DI.