using an analog console?

[scotttrecordsbands]

hi there, forgive my stupidity but i was thinking about analog consoles, and while i don't have the experience or money for one, i just wondered if someone could shed some light on them for me.

if you take something like the 'Toft ATB24', i notice that engineers appear to mix extensively on the board, how are the channels linked to protools or whatever DAW may be in use because obviously analog is not digital, hence no firewire, but each channel as an out to a firewire interface removes the on-board mixing capability?

i actually spent time in a studio with an analog desk but at the time had less of an interest in the production side of things so firstly forgive the dumb question, i've searched the forum but haven't come across anything and any wisdom gratefully appreciated.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

Direct Outs/Recording outs into Converter (for example 192)....converter outs into tape in on console.

while I do like the idea of big analog consoles I think they're not preactical for the way I work...
due to bands fucking up my timing all the time I often have to work on several projects at the same time=recall-hell on the console.

then the cheaper ones often don't sound really that good, they're maintanace extensive etc....
the do double as a heating system for the studio though

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

while I do like the idea of big analog consoles I think they're not preactical for the way I work...
due to bands fucking up my timing all the time I often have to work on several projects at the same time=recall-hell on the console.

then the cheaper ones often don't sound really that good, they're maintanace extensive etc....
the do double as a heating system for the studio though

Heh, same here, though I'm of the generation who started without touching an analog console.

I'd really like to like those big monsters, but to me, they just feel inconvenient. I don't like to start a session by going through the photos I took of the knobs and faders at the end of the last session, manually recalling the desk, outboard gear and patchbay. Guess I got spoiled with the whole digital thingamagic to begin with

I also hate the reliability issues with the console I most often work with, which is a TLA VTC24. It's got really nice preamps and EQ's, but I wouldn't count on it on an important project.

 

[vespiz]

I have a Toft ATB24 connected to Digi002 and Lynx Aurora 8.

I love to track through it, especially when doing drums (with snare and kick through TG-2). I've been learning to commit with using the desk, using the eq and comps to make the sounds going into PT. This is something I've getting into more and more and so far I like it!

Come mixing time, depending on the project, I mix ITB or a hybrid method. Usually, larger sessions benefit from the hybrid method, since I can use my fx boxes :Smokin: These tend to eat cpu power ITB fast..

Now, I don't have that many sessions going on as some of you guys, so I've not had that many recall "problems".
Might have to re-think as and when things get more busier.

On the edge mixing, now there's a concept!

 

[greyskull]

if the way the business was going was any different, id buy an ssl g right now.
sadly fast recall/touch ups and huge electricity bills slightly affect that!

 

[colonel kurtz]

honestly, in today's day and age, i look at analog consoles as nothing but relics that people keep around for memory's sake

not to say that they aren't awesome, and that they didn't serve their purpose to an extremely high level...but they're just not necessary anymore. now you can get a rack full of outboard and a control surface, and have more functionality, better reliability, lower cost, and arguably as good of sonics as if you used an analog console throughout...

 

[Wolfeman]

Most people I know that have consoles in the studio simply use them for the mic pres.

 

[Ermz]

Even via Alex B's SSL 4k Nebula programs you can tell what kind of difference mixing through a console would impart to a mix.

Mixes done totally ITB usually have a sterile, disjointed vibe compared to analog counterparts. It's very hard to get anything to 'glue' right, as the picture is too clear, the transients are too full, and nothing is rounded, blurred, excited. Even if you mix outboard into your ITB process, it doesn't have the same effect. The tracks may start to sound more excited, and punchy, but the sort of glue you get from the effect of the strips themselves, the busses and not to mention the ultimate summing at the master bus is something else.

If you don't believe me, listen to some of the samples done with Alex B's Nebula consoles. He claims these are about 90% close to the real thing, and even that difference alone is immense. This is just from 'saturating' individual tracks and busses with sampled versions of the console.

Here's the only comparison I've done so far that I can give you:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Forum/Porcelain4-TotallyITB-48k.wav

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Forum/Porcelain4-NebulaAll-48k.wav

Listen to how much the saturation excites the track, and also how it glues the low-end of the kick back into the song, rather than having a lump sticking out. No algorithmic plug-in I've seen so far has done something like this from just a 'flat', blanket setting.

Mixing desks may be relics, but they are relics that sound better. That is the true tragedy of modern day audio.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

...
Mixing desks may be relics, but they are relics that sound better. That is the true tragedy of modern day audio.

true and not....
it might true for a great SSL or Neve console, but most of todays budget wouldn't even pay for the electricity bill of those (not to speak of maintenance etc).
BUT I think you can get much better results with great outboard compressors and rack preamps (API, neve, 1176, smart...) than with the average 5-10k$ console like soundcraft, mackie, yamaha etc..

so if you don't have the money for one of the big names and also the money to maintain it there's no advantage in buying a medicre console IMO.
I'd take a couple of great rack preamps, compressors and a great converter over a soundcraft/Mackie/etc any day of the week.

 

[Ermz]

Totally agree with you Lasse, but I'm really not talking about low-end consoles. More the benefit of using great outboard in tandem with a great console, irrespective of budgets.

I'm hoping with the rise of Nebula as the only piece of software that actually does analogue-esque sounds half decently, that we will within a few years be able to get the best of both worlds. I'm rapidly moving into a hybrid setup. In fact just sent the GSSL off for the guy to take a look and improve it, as well as waiting on the 1176s to come in. This is after purchasing the Waves CLA pack. There just is no substitute for good outboard these days, but it's a DIFFERENT thing to good console summing. Whether or not you process all your ITB tracks with outboard or not, they are still going to have some of that disconnected feel to them. Having good, console-style saturation on your busses and tracks helps the project come together in a cohesive way. I'm hoping plug-ins will get to a point where we can have that as well as the recall, without any significant loss of quality.

 

[Kazrog]

I'm definitely a believer in analog summing. Mixes "glue" better in analog and there's no way to get "that" sound digitally at this point in time. However, you don't necessarily need a console to get there. On the budget end of the summing spectrum, you have stuff like the Dangerous D-Box. There's even some DIY stuff people have built that impart a nice character to mixes and help glue things together well.

I would love to hear a shoot-out between various outboard consoles and summing boxes with the same mix. I'm undecided as to where I want to go with analog summing in my home studio, still mixing ITB right now in Cubase 5, although I will most likely sum the next Backmask album analog at a local studio through an SSL desk before mastering.

 

[Matthias King]

Even via Alex B's SSL 4k Nebula programs you can tell what kind of difference mixing through a console would impart to a mix.

Mixes done totally ITB usually have a sterile, disjointed vibe compared to analog counterparts. It's very hard to get anything to 'glue' right, as the picture is too clear, the transients are too full, and nothing is rounded, blurred, excited. Even if you mix outboard into your ITB process, it doesn't have the same effect. The tracks may start to sound more excited, and punchy, but the sort of glue you get from the effect of the strips themselves, the busses and not to mention the ultimate summing at the master bus is something else.

If you don't believe me, listen to some of the samples done with Alex B's Nebula consoles. He claims these are about 90% close to the real thing, and even that difference alone is immense. This is just from 'saturating' individual tracks and busses with sampled versions of the console.

Here's the only comparison I've done so far that I can give you:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Forum/Porcelain4-TotallyITB-48k.wav

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Forum/Porcelain4-NebulaAll-48k.wav

Listen to how much the saturation excites the track, and also how it glues the low-end of the kick back into the song, rather than having a lump sticking out. No algorithmic plug-in I've seen so far has done something like this from just a 'flat', blanket setting.

Mixing desks may be relics, but they are relics that sound better. That is the true tragedy of modern day audio.

Not to be contrary, but didn't the man for whom this forum is named say he mixes entirely ITB? And I don't think Andy's mixes sound sterile or disjointed. Do you?

 

[Matthias King]

I would love to hear a shoot-out between various outboard consoles and summing boxes with the same mix.

I'm sure someone or many someones will call bullshit, but I read a magazine article a couple years ago in Sound on Sound or Recording or one of those, don't recall which, where they did a shootout almost exactly like what you're talking about. They summed the same mix through strictly Logic, then they did one through a Behringer ADA8000 and a Mackie Onyx 1620, and then they did one through an Apogee DA-16x and a Dangerous 2bus.

The results were basically too close to call, and none of the three came out a clear head and shoulders winner as some analog heads would have you believe.

Believe it or don't. Like it or don't. It's just some interesting food for thought and your wallet.

 

[Kazrog]

Believe it or don't. Like it or don't. It's just some interesting food for thought and your wallet.

Article is here and I've read it before. Not really a satisfying read because the clips aren't available to be heard. I'm not going to take anyone's word for it, I want to hear for myself.

Mixes summed through a physical SSL board do sound different/better than mixes summed ITB, and it's a difference I have heard first-hand with the same tracks. As for summing boxes on the market, I can't speak for any of them because I haven't used them. Obviously, a summing box has WAY fewer components in it than a full console - and much of the sound of a full console is running through an entire path of complex circuits - channel strips, etc., which even when bypassed in many ways actually degrade the audio being run through them - but in a way that humans tend to like.

I'm definitely not looking to buy anything without doing thorough a/b testing, public clip posting to forums, and taking advantage of a return policy if I need to. I've done it before with other gear, and I'll do it again. No reason to keep something you don't like.

 

[Ermz]

Not to be contrary, but didn't the man for whom this forum is named say he mixes entirely ITB? And I don't think Andy's mixes sound sterile or disjointed. Do you?

I do. I haven't enjoyed listening to his mixes in years, but that's beside the point.

I'm not into summing boxes at all. It needs to be an actual console, or a proper 'simulation' of that console. Whatever the case, the Nebula programs just simply make the source material 'better' and that is something I cannot argue with.

 

[Urgul]

I'm not into summing boxes at all.

Have you used any of these? Especially D-Box? I've heard only good things about this piece of gear. Do you think that using Nebula SSL programs is a better solution to achieve analog vibe in the mixes? I'm just curious, I don't have any experience with summing boxes or Nebula SSL programs.

 

[Ermz]

I haven't used them myself, but the main issue for me there is that you're using DA/AD channels to get in and out of those boxes. Those channels would be better put to use by just getting some outboard bus compressors, so you'd actually be able to do something useful with those busses rather than just sum.

For the time being Nebula is most definitely the more affordable and practical option so for me it's not even a question.

 

[Mikaël-ange]

Working with console are always possible today: Bergstrand (but Duality have recall and VCA), Wieslawski bro (amek classic) or Joachim Jacobs from Split second sound with his Amek BC3 (before he used a soundtracs 4832IL).

If you only use eq and do all you automation ITB, recall wouldn't be a big pain.

 

[greyskull]

Working with console are always possible today: Bergstrand (but Duality have recall and VCA), Wieslawski bro (amek classic) or Joachim Jacobs from Split second sound with his Amek BC3 (before he used a soundtracs 4832IL).

If you only use eq and do all you automation ITB, recall wouldn't be a big pain.

recall on a duality is the same as recall on a G
SLOW. I still think its mental that someone hasnt invented a better system that uses motorized pots or something, as opposed to "heres a picture of what you set the knobs to on the computer, now move the knob til the lights go out."

 

[Wolfeman]

recall on a duality is the same as recall on a G
SLOW. I still think its mental that someone hasnt invented a better system that uses motorized pots or something, as opposed to "heres a picture of what you set the knobs to on the computer, now move the knob til the lights go out."

I'm sure they could, it would actually be easy to implement motorized pots. The problem is motorized pots are like $20 a piece, and take up a lot of room. It's just not feasible.