Vintersorg cover thread :)

[Sigurðr]

Hello people o/
I want to share with you a cover of one of my favorite vintersorg song, and of course if someone have a video with a vintersorg cover too, let's share I would like to see your opinions about my cover, especially from allfader who is a fretless bassist too , and the other 23498239048 bassists in the forum

 

[Sigurðr]

woah..there's two threads how i delete one?

 

[lefay82]

man, you're terribly out of tune!
one of my speakers is broken so i can't hear very well the lower notes, but the higher notes in the first part sound very off-key, sorry

 

[Sigurðr]

really? :S I tuned my bass with the tuner , for me the first part is okay..but you can hear the bass in music higher than mine so i think it's because that but now you tell me this i'm in doubt

 

[lefay82]

really? :S I tuned my bass with the tuner , for me the first part is okay..but you can hear the bass in music higher than mine so i think it's because that but now you tell me this i'm in doubt

well i don't think is the tuner's fault. i mean, you seem to do not hit the right tune of some notes. to play a fretless bass is harder than a normal one, or at least i suppose if it works like with violin or cello, if you don't press the exact point the intonation will be wrong, even some millemeters up or down the fingerboard will produce a change in the note's intonation, with fretted instruments instead you can press evey point inside the fret and the sound will be in tune (at least if you press too near to the fret you will have some buzzing)
i played cello so i know how difficult it is to be perfectly tuned.
but i'm curious to hear also allfader's opinion....

 

[Sigurðr]

yes you are right but the strange part is that this bass was a fretted bass ..and it is still with the fret marks on it so i play with my fingers exactly in the marks ): but i cutted my finger with a knife 3 days ago and its hurting when i play so i think it might be my finger

 

[Defiance]

Hey, great cover! Congrats hehe! You're a much better player than I am, keep it up. Some parts do seem out of tune, and you did miss some notes, but IMO it's a great cover!

 

[Sigurðr]

Hey, great cover! Congrats hehe! You're a much better player than I am, keep it up. Some parts do seem out of tune, and you did miss some notes, but IMO it's a great cover!

thks dude i think some parts are out of tune, but well its hard to pick everything by ear but i will improve this song, i just got excited today when i finished it so i wanted to share

 

[Defiance]

Haha yeah, I'd be excited if I could play fretless/ do a Vintersorg cover. Just being able to do that puts you light years away from most bassists, not only because of the difficulty but because you'd have a notion of what great music is.

 

[lefay82]

yes you are right but the strange part is that this bass was a fretted bass ..and it is still with the fret marks on it so i play with my fingers exactly in the marks ): but i cutted my finger with a knife 3 days ago and its hurting when i play so i think it might be my finger

i don't know if i'm able to explain it because my english sucks
in a fretted instrument you have a fret which is the part inside the two bars. every point between the two bars you will press with your finger will generate the same sound, perfectly in tune. the sharps and the flats correspond in fretted instruments.
in reality those two sounds do not correspond because the tone is divided into 9 commas, and C# and Db are in different places (i put an image below). but to do not create problems in fretted instruments, like guitars or pianos, the two things (flats and sharps) correspond, it's called tempered system (sistema temperato in italian), a system where the octave is divided into 12 semitones and it's the base for the tuning of tempered instruments (like i've said piano, guitar, harpsichord, harp)
in stringed instruments like violin, cello and contrabass they don't correspond because you are able to move freely inside the tone, up and down the string, with no bars and limitations, so you can make those two sounds really sound differently.
but this freedom to move can cause also intonation's problems because there's only one exact point that corrisponds to the exact note, for example to the C, and if you press your finger a little bit down or up this point you will have a growing or descending note (well i'm not sure if they are the right terms. in italian we say "un suono calante o crescente" ).

no matter if it was a fretted bass and you have the frets designed on your neck, having you (or someone) removed the frets, you must keep in mind that there's only one point inside the fret's space where you will have a well tuned A B C etc etc

DO = C in english sistem
RE = D

just imagine this is one tone on your fingerboard, you have two notes, C and D and a lot of microtonal shades in between

hope you have understood something, it's a difficult argument to face in a foreign language.

 

[Allfader]

Lefay explained incredibly well the theory! I think I can add something to her lesson.

Even if it's true that you can press right into the place where the fret originally was, you'll still be slightly out of tune, specially in the higher positions, cause you need to 'sharp' a little the finger position at your left hand to get the right note (this counts since fret #13 onwards, always getting higher - for mm, this the 9 commas fault, since for ex: a Bb it's not the same than a A#, that comma is just rounded up/down with frets, but on fretless, that comma will affect your intonation the more you get higher octaves...I hope you can understand it.)
Even more, on the lower positions (frets 1-4 specially), you should slightly flat the note to get the 'real' note well. that flatten effect is decreasing while you are getting the 7th-9th fret, where you can safely put your finger just on the space where the fret was originally. I strongly recommend an unlined fretless bass, to start, so you MUST train your ear to play in tune, instead looking at the frets - remember, music is to hear, not to see.

Another thing: one of the best things that fretless has as an advantage is the expression you can play, the feeling you can put into the notes and that is able to do with 2 things: a controlled slide and vibrato.

I've learnt some songs from Focusing, Solens and Visions...maybe someday I'll record myself playing a song...Spegelsfären is one of my favs on bass. That should be a good choice. I know some Borknagar tracks from Empiricism, Epic and Origin too... time will tell.

@Lefay: since most of the musical terms originally teached are in italian, I guess you can just say them as they are and - the ones who has some knowledge in musical theory will understand

 

[lefay82]

Lefay explained incredibly well the theory! I think I can add something to her lesson.

really? i had some doubts

Even if it's true that you can press right into the place where the fret originally was, you'll still be slightly out of tune, specially in the higher positions, cause you need to 'sharp' a little the finger position at your left hand to get the right note (this counts since fret #13 onwards, always getting higher - for mm, this the 9 commas fault, since for ex: a Bb it's not the same than a A#, that comma is just rounded up/down with frets, but on fretless, that comma will affect your intonation the more you get higher octaves...I hope you can understand it.)
Even more, on the lower positions (frets 1-4 specially), you should slightly flat the note to get the 'real' note well. that flatten effect is decreasing while you are getting the 7th-9th fret, where you can safely put your finger just on the space where the fret was originally. I strongly recommend an unlined fretless bass, to start, so you MUST train your ear to play in tune, instead looking at the frets - remember, music is to hear, not to see.

Another thing: one of the best things that fretless has as an advantage is the expression you can play, the feeling you can put into the notes and that is able to do with 2 things: a controlled slide and vibrato.

to explain this part you're more skilled than me. i mean, having played only cello i know what kind of problems you can have with this instrument, but as you know, cello has not frets at all so i cannot compare exactly (just imagine) what kind of problems you can have with a de-fretted instrument, but yes i agree with you, it's better to play a bass with no marks at all, then you will be able to play all the fretless basses you will have in your hands...
with cello you only have to use your ears to know if you're tuned or not. and believe me that you need a lot of training to get a proper ear, my teacher always heard some shades that i wasn't able to catch, but he was a very great musician!!!! even when i was perfectly tuned he had to tell me something about some notes up and there, or better he used to scream to me "cala!" or "cresci!!!!

@Lefay: since most of the musical terms originally teached are in italian, I guess you can just say them as they are and - the ones who has some knowledge in musical theory will understand

i wasn't sure if sigurd has some kind of musical training, that's why i traslated everything and tried to be as simple as i can to explain this argument.... which is a looong and complicated argument :Smug:

 

[Sigurðr]

i wasn't sure if sigurd has some kind of musical training, that's why i traslated everything and tried to be as simple as i can to explain this argument.... which is a looong and complicated argument :Smug:

I play bass since 2003 but i don't have too much fretless-skills lol i bought this bass in september i guess but thanks for the info

Thanks for the tips allfader! but what you think about the music? when i was playing i though that i was playing a good cover but now i dont really know haha

 

[Naglfar]

I play bass since 2003 but i don't have too much fretless-skills lol i bought this bass in september i guess but thanks for the info

Thanks for the tips allfader! but what you think about the music? when i was playing i though that i was playing a good cover but now i dont really know haha

I quit in 2003. =)

I've been thinking of learning the guitar lately. But my brother is a professional musician and it makes me mad that he does something that much better than I do. Damn him! ^_^

 

[lefay82]

when i was playing i though that i was playing a good cover but now i dont really know haha

wait! don't panic or get depressed.
ear is a thing you can train.
what can i tell you is to train with a lot of scales. it's easier to understand if you're tuned or not because the interval between notes is smaller (generally one tone or one semitone). if you wanna do something for free you can search youtube and find someone who does some scales and play together with the video, it will help you to find the right intonation, or if you can afford some private lessons (which i suppose is the best choice) you can find some fretless teacher.

 

[Allfader]

I play bass since 2003 but i don't have too much fretless-skills lol i bought this bass in september i guess but thanks for the info

Thanks for the tips allfader! but what you think about the music? when i was playing i though that i was playing a good cover but now i dont really know haha

Well, if you have been playing this few time fretless, I guess I understand why you're playing out of tune. I presume that your average ratio of correctly played notes goes around 20% if not less. It's quite normal, don't feel bad at all. There are plenty of exercises that I know to train the ear and increasing that ratio. No fretless player plays 100% tuned all the time, and in a way, that's the idea, but you must first to learn when you're are off key and how to fix it quickly playing without being noticed doing so. For almost 2 months of playing fretless I would say it's a decent attempt, but obviously there are too many things you have to do to play that song properly. A proper 'lesson' of exercises would be too long to explain here but I can give you some tips:

1- calibrate your instrument. No matter how good you are, if the bass it's not in shape, you'll sound offkey anyway.

2- compare different notes with a open string note to check your intonation - to do this you must be able to distinguish the different intervals (2nd, min-maj 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etx), do this specially with octaves and you'll get used to the offkey notes.

3- deliberately play out of tune., to learn how exactly the offkey sounds both flat and sharp. This way, you'll know when you're flat or sharp and you'll know how you must shift down or up to get the right sound.

4- try to minimize the shifts from the right hand. Thy to play 'vertically, moving your fingers up and down thru the strings, but trying to keep a more or less fixed position on the fretboard. to go from bar#2 to bar#15 is too damn 'risky' on fretless, so try get those intervals with different strings.

If I have some more time, I can tell you more about it

 

[Sigurðr]

Well, if you have been playing this few time fretless, I guess I understand why you're playing out of tune. I presume that your average ratio of correctly played notes goes around 20% if not less. It's quite normal, don't feel bad at all. There are plenty of exercises that I know to train the ear and increasing that ratio. No fretless player plays 100% tuned all the time, and in a way, that's the idea, but you must first to learn when you're are off key and how to fix it quickly playing without being noticed doing so. For almost 2 months of playing fretless I would say it's a decent attempt, but obviously there are too many things you have to do to play that song properly. A proper 'lesson' of exercises would be too long to explain here but I can give you some tips:

1- calibrate your instrument. No matter how good you are, if the bass it's not in shape, you'll sound offkey anyway.

2- compare different notes with a open string note to check your intonation - to do this you must be able to distinguish the different intervals (2nd, min-maj 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etx), do this specially with octaves and you'll get used to the offkey notes.

3- deliberately play out of tune., to learn how exactly the offkey sounds both flat and sharp. This way, you'll know when you're flat or sharp and you'll know how you must shift down or up to get the right sound.

4- try to minimize the shifts from the right hand. Thy to play 'vertically, moving your fingers up and down thru the strings, but trying to keep a more or less fixed position on the fretboard. to go from bar#2 to bar#15 is too damn 'risky' on fretless, so try get those intervals with different strings.

If I have some more time, I can tell you more about it

I would enjoy if you share your knowledge about fretless bass with me

 

[Allfader]

Sure man, no problem.