Vocal troubles - anyone have any clips?

rvs0002

Metal from the Heartland
Jun 28, 2007
502
2
18
Topeka, KS
www.johnnylokkeband.com
I've really been struggling with getting my vox to sit right in the mix lately. Anyone have any clips dry and then processed with a quick and dirty rundown on what you did? This is in the Rob halford/Bruce dickinson/Ronnie Dio vein. I did a lot of searching, but it seems all I could find on vox related to the more extreme styles. Any help is appreciated.
 
play with the low-mid end of the vox around 200/250 hz to bring it forward , its all about the balance of how it sits in the mix.... a spectrum analyzer works well if you are not sure on where to begin, since every vocal is different.... i use very little eq on vox and more eq on the other tracks in the mix to fit the vox in.there are no rules, do what sounds best. as far as compression goes it always depends on the source.. i religiously track vox with a 4:1 ratio on the 1176 and vary the attack and release times to suit the source, then usually add another 6:1 to 10:1 in a variety of stages once its in the mix. de-esser is always last in my chain. i automate rides in level for the overall vox balance... everybody's different
 
play with the low-mid end of the vox around 200/250 hz to bring it forward , its all about the balance of how it sits in the mix.... a spectrum analyzer works well if you are not sure on where to begin, since every vocal is different.... i use very little eq on vox and more eq on the other tracks in the mix to fit the vox in.there are no rules, do what sounds best. as far as compression goes it always depends on the source.. i religiously track vox with a 4:1 ratio on the 1176 and vary the attack and release times to suit the source, then usually add another 6:1 to 10:1 in a variety of stages once its in the mix. de-esser is always last in my chain. i automate rides in level for the overall vox balance... everybody's different

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it!
 
That type of vocal can be rough, depending on the singer. For my band, I was singing at a similar pitch to Dio or Dickinson, but I'm naturally a bass so there were all sorts of lower midrange frequencies still coming through, which can make it hard to get the vocal to sit in the mix decently with distorted guitars. Compression is extremely variable depending on the singer and material. Besides compression and a few selective EQ cuts, the best thing that I found for getting the vocal to blend in was a relatively short delay timed to the track.
 
I agree, the vocals are usually varying over many ranges and difficult to eq. That's why I was very curious to hear some before and after clips, just to compare to my own stuff and make sure I'm at a good starting place before I even begin. I have searched the net and it is crazy hard to even find anything related to power metal vocals though. Tons on everything else, but for some reason non-existant on these.

Oh where is Roy Z. when you need him??????
 
thats pretty much exactly what type of vox our singer does. Best thing I can say is that as far as compression goes, you want to have just enough to keep a good balance going in. A really good singer is also important and I don't mean with their talent, I mean with being able to sing very consistent and not move too much around the mic. Obviously you are beyond that part so for mixing what I do is usually high pass at around 100 ... he has a more bassy voice as well so it kills some of the rumble that builds up in sections that have doubled or harmony parts. Compression I use a slow attack and adjust the release on how he's singing for a particular song, it just depends on the tempo. Ratio is low but thats usually because the better part of the compression was handled during tracking, so maybe like 2:1, 4:1 if he's being a bit more froggy in his attack. As foe EQ, I do almost nothing except the high pass, at the most I might give a small boost somewhere in the upper mids just to give the vox a little more teeth, somewhere around 2000-4000 works for his voice but it depends on what range he's singing in. I almost never use a de-esser on him, never really needed to and aside from that I just put a couple of sends on his main vocal track, most of it going to a timed delay, some of it going to a verb. All his additional vocals I usually leave a lot more dry, just the smallest amount of reverb with my sends and then tuck them far underneath the main vocal.

It REALLY will depend on things like the tuning of the guitars/bass, how many tracks you have with vocals and also how dense the material itself is while vocals are going on. You may find it helps to cut out some small notches in the guitars at key frequencies of the vocal. I've done this too and it usually doesn't do anything to change the guitar sound while you're listening back to the whole mix

I also run my mixes through an AC1 plug in the master and use that to help get my levels balanced out. I might drive each mix about 4-6db hotter with it but keep the gain reduction at no more than 2db in the loudest parts (charles dye trick). It seems to really help things like vox and bass find their way through a dense mix better without overdoing anything. Another plug that can work well is the Vintage Warmer

anyway, those are my ideas.

Cheers!
 
I don't know if this will help or not, but one thing I have found with vocals, and I'm far from an expert, is that there sometimes seems to be a "sweet spot" mix wise, where when you're fiddling around and getting things close, just a single db or even sometimes half a db will drastically alter how they sit. A db down and they seem kinda buried, 1 up and they almost seem disconnected from the mix. I usually start fiddling around with eq and stuff, then make small slow up and down adjustments with the fader to see if I'm getting close to that sweet spot. It's almost like trying to find the minimum level where they start getting blurred by the other tracks and the maximum where they kind of jump out too much, then kind of zero in from those two extremes. Thats why automating slight fader movements for different passages can be so helpful, like seditz mentioned. But then again I prefer my vox a little low to kind of sit in with all the instruments. It may be different for your vocalist's style. I'm used to the more extreme stuff, which is probably easier to mix.

Edit: I guess I should add the obvious fact that the "sweet spot" will probably vary from person to person, as vocal levels can be pretty subjective. Some people like their vocals way up front so listeners can sing along or whatever (pop music) but others (like me) preffer vocals that sit in with the mix to where they can be clearly understood, but don't really dominate everything else. Just my 2 cents.

Edit #2: Yes, I'm aware of the underlying humor in the first part of the first sentence of my last edit. Heh.
 
Nice ideas, really dig your stuff on MySpace. Got any clips (doesn't have to be the whole tune...maybe a minutes worth processed and unprocessed)? what's your vocal chain?

thanks again.

You too Uladyne, I agree that the smallest adjustments can sometimes alter things drastically.

I'm at work right now but I'll see if I can dig out something tonight

as far as vocal chain, the songs up on our myspace if I remember correctly we used a nuemann mic of some sort, forget the mic pre (neve maybe) into a distressor comp.

As far as for in the mix, really almost nothing except a bit of delay, a tiny bit of reverb and the EQ stuff I had mentioned before. Thats just a really good capture of what his voice sounds like. Trust me, I have demo stuff he's done in my living room using an sm57 just to get an idea down and he still sounds great :D

Oh yeah and also Renncomp thrown onto his main vocal track. Not much on there, slow attack, release depends on song, ratio at like 2:1 - 4:1 and I put the threshold somewhere around -8db .. sometimes use about 2 db of makeup gain. It might be a little quiter with the comp on but I like setting the makeup gain so its just a little quieter than without it and then makeup the rest with the fader.
 
Also, here's a link to a newer song. Its just my 1st draft rough mix of the tune, doesn't even have the keyboards put in yet but this was done at a completely different little studio with equipment that is not even close to being as good as previous. His vocals came out just as good IMO

A lot of it also has to do with his discipline when tracking. He's a very consistent singer as far as how loud he is and he also knows where to position himself from the mic when he knows a more dynamic part is coming up. If he's gonna belt out some screams he can do that without spiking anything because he just moves his body away a couple inches, same for when a quiet part comes up ... moves in the right amount closer. We almost never have to make any adjustments to anything once we set an initial vocal level for him. Anyway, here's the link and as far as any plugs go, just the ones I've mentioned

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6942801

and thanks for the kind words :D

Cheers!
 
I'm at work right now but I'll see if I can dig out something tonight

Thanks man, I appreciate it. Don't go to a lot of trouble, if you can't find anything that's ok.

Trust me, I have demo stuff he's done in my living room using an sm57 just to get an idea down and he still sounds great

And that's what it all really comes down to in the end!
 
Also, here's a link to a newer song. Its just my 1st draft rough mix of the tune, doesn't even have the keyboards put in yet but this was done at a completely different little studio with equipment that is not even close to being as good as previous. His vocals came out just as good IMO

It's a bit thinner (IMO) than the other songs on your MySpace page, and more like the vocals I'm having problems with. A little harsher, some sibilance that creeps in from time to time, and not quite as warm/fat. Don't get me wrong, I like the song and performance a lot, but I can definately hear the difference. I would be very interested in following your progress on this one from this demo stage to a fairly polished final version. I think that would help me a lot to "watch over your shoulder" as you work on it. Maybe you could pm me as you progress on it with what you did and newer versions if it wasn't too much trouble.
 
It's a bit thinner (IMO) than the other songs on your MySpace page, and more like the vocals I'm having problems with. A little harsher, some sibilance that creeps in from time to time, and not quite as warm/fat. Don't get me wrong, I like the song and performance a lot, but I can definately hear the difference. I would be very interested in following your progress on this one from this demo stage to a fairly polished final version. I think that would help me a lot to "watch over your shoulder" as you work on it. Maybe you could pm me as you progress on it with what you did and newer versions if it wasn't too much trouble.

No problem man. Yeah this was just 1st draft. Need the keys in there to fatten things up. Most of the stuff on our myspace page has keyboards parts under everything, even if you can't hear them. I use them a lot to just fatten up the overall sound after the fact. Plus its not mastered or anything, only thing on the mix is the AC1 plug on the master. Believe it or not, the "not as warm" sound is what we went for. The guitars are colder sounding and we wanted the vocals to be a little uglier sounding too. Felt it worked better for this batch of tunes.

When I'm done placing the keys in and get a rough balance I'll shoot you a pm

Cheers!
 
I was actually just talking about the vocals in my "thin" comments. I thought everything else stood up to your other stuff toe to toe. Nice work and thanks for helping me out!

No problem man

I'll see if I can run off a couple of 30 second clips later ... I'm guessing you just want to hear the vocals in a full mix, one clip with no processing and then the other with everything on yes? Or were you looking for something more stripped down?
 
No problem man

I'll see if I can run off a couple of 30 second clips later ... I'm guessing you just want to hear the vocals in a full mix, one clip with no processing and then the other with everything on yes? Or were you looking for something more stripped down?

I was hoping I could get 4 clips...1 solo'd unprocessed, 1 solo'd processed, 1 in full mix unprocessed, 1 in full mix processed if it isn't too much work.