Well that just won't work

[Lateralus14]

It's cool BlueSky obviously everyone can't be as intelligent as us.

 

[Heliotropic_Rose]

To: Bluesky and Lateralus14

really? you guys are still sucking Maynard's cock? really? come on now, as far as the bass lines and guitar riffs go with TOOL, they are not that complex. I've seen TOOL many of times and seen lots of live youtube videos and as simple as Adam's leads are (when he has them) he has fucked up many times live. I've heard Maynard's voice crack more times than I can count. That's why Maynard relies on the Delay/Reverb on his vocals. His soundguy gets a cue from Maynard saying "hey my vocals are fucking up" and that's when you get the endless reverb/delay from his vocals live, so it sound like he doesn't fuck up.

 

[Lateralus14]

I really don't disagree that their music isn't that technically demanding (though there are parts that require some degree of precision i.e. the solo to Triad), but there's no denying the band as a whole is tight as fuck.

Anywho, it's pure fanboyism to imply Anders is somehow so much better.

 

[BlueSky]

Neither is a shred band, and if that's what impresses you then chances are you don't play music. Try keeping a two to three hour set tight when going through all the signatures they do. Any lesser musician's head would explode. EVERYONE fucks up live sometimes; However, there's a huge difference between being sloppy, and tight. A singer who uses reverb/delay!?!? That's unheard of! His voiced cracked? Do you know what their tours/ sets consist of? Stop being an asshole.

Back to the comment that sparked this debate, you're honestly going to sit here, and tell me TGCD is as intricate as a Lateralus or 10,000 Days? Because it's not, and that's my point.

 

[Lateralus14]

I love Katatonia to death but I can honestly think of at least 20 records this decade that top NITND for me.

 

[Bleak Eyes]

 

[magicelf]

Speaking of fangirl. You're completely oblivious if you think this is even a competition. Having seen both bands live first hand I can tell you as players they're not even close to the same level as anyone in Tool in technique or precision, and their music is less demanding. FACT. Katatonia is not known to be a tight live band or monstrous players for a reason. Katatonia are songwriters first, and foremost. I'm a huge fan of both bands, and this is non-bias speaking. I'm not going to dignify this discussion any further.

I'm not a huge Katatonia fan and I'm not a huge Tool fan but I own records by both. It's not a matter of me loving a band to the point of bias but knowing both bands music and knowing first hand how much "technique" is needed to play Tools music. Once again, aside from Danny no one in Tool is an outstanding performer.

You stated Tool's guitar work is more percussive and relies on playing "tight" as if staying in time should be hard for a musician

I know sometimes it's hard to think things through with Maynards dick so far in your mouth your brain is being poked but you'll eventually understand that a band that takes 20 years to release 3 decent albums deserves no praise at all. :danceboy: I would fucking hope after 5 years rehearsing they can play 10,000 D chords pretty fucking precisely.

 

[i aint play this]

Katatonia and Tool are both amazing and all, but if I had to compare Anders and Jones, I'd say Anders is a much better, much more creative guitar player than Jones, and it's not fanboy-ish at all to say this, it's a fairly respectable opinion.

 

[BlueSky]

Once again, aside from Danny no one in Tool is an outstanding performer. as if staying in time should be hard for a musician

Keep talking out of your ass.

(Cam)


(Dvd)


The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Lisra]

you don't play music. Try keeping a two to three hour set tight when going through all the signatures they do. Any lesser musician's head would explode.

Neither is a shred band, and if that's what impresses you then chances are you don't play music.

Are YOU are musician?
Just out of interest. Im not debating if Tool is hard or not, just perspective.

And there's no proof in pudding.

 

[BlueSky]

You took my comment way out of context. I was meant as a general statement, but yes I do play both the drums, and guitar. Having been around highly trained musicians my entire life I'd like to think I've got quite an eye for technique. Like I said there's no best anything. Everyone got their own strengths, and weakness. I watch Adam, and the rest of the band, and their internal clocks are a thing of beauty. Precision players in the highest order that are way past the thought process of technique. Lots of people can play Tool songs, but they don't play like Tool. I've also seen a lot of hotshot wankers who think they're hot shit, and they're sloppy as fuck. To me good players play for the song, not themselves, and they do it with sureness, and precision. I watch Katatonia, and they're creative minds, and great studio musicians, but they're simply not the level of musicians Tool are. Even the band has admitted Daniel has the most raw talent, and he's a phenomenal player, but I don't put him on that level either. Back to the proof is in the pudding, a big reason why Tool can do such large scale tours without releasing albums constantly is because they're such outstanding performers. This is possibly the biggest area holding Katatonia back at this point.

There's obvious a lot of biased hate against Tool because they're popular. Any music enthusiast should be thanking their lucky stars that a band like that could be that big in a world like this. They've opened up a lot of doors for other bands. So keep on hating, but in the end they've done something very few have.

 

[MiniMoose]

I'm not a huge Katatonia fan and I'm not a huge Tool fan but I own records by both. It's not a matter of me loving a band to the point of bias but knowing both bands music and knowing first hand how much "technique" is needed to play Tools music. Once again, aside from Danny no one in Tool is an outstanding performer.

You stated Tool's guitar work is more percussive and relies on playing "tight" as if staying in time should be hard for a musician

I know sometimes it's hard to think things through with Maynards dick so far in your mouth your brain is being poked but you'll eventually understand that a band that takes 20 years to release 3 decent albums deserves no praise at all. :danceboy: I would fucking hope after 5 years rehearsing they can play 10,000 D chords pretty fucking precisely.

Me also owns cds of both bands.
Technique is not very important to me, it's how it sounds, so this way Katatonia wins by far. Live shows? If it's talk about technique that must be talked about, Tool wins. Every member of Katatonia would of course say the same.
Tool deserves praise, even if I don't ever listen to it anymore. Not the praise that diehardToolfans give them, but some praise they should have. Same with Opeth. Doesn't mean it's uber. There's thousands of bands more technically better. It's the combination of things. Atmosphere, riffs, drums, groove, vocals, lyrics, rawness, production, technique, the-time-it-comes-out-factor etc.
Technique is only interesting if it sounds good or the ones listening to it look for something interesting technically and focus a lot on that aspect. Tool was the first band to blend the two in the new and interesting way they did. Not THE FIRST of course, but they hit something in the time it came out and they happened to be very skillful musicians also. My problem with Tool is the Maynard vocals. Jonas has just a way more interesting voice. Maynard is still very good at what he does..even if I think he's a bit boring to listen to.

If freshness is something that should be added to the discussion, Katatonia wins by far.

All in all I agree with BlueSky.

 

[Lisra]

My remark to the proof was only meant to be a stab at being a language nazi. Because the proof is not in the pudding, but in the eating of same.

Also, I'm not biased at all about Tool, and I didn't exactly want to enter the debate.

 

[BlueSky]

My remark to the proof was only meant to be a stab at being a language nazi. Because the proof is not in the pudding, but in the eating of same.

How about, "a picture's worth a thousand words." Does that gel with you?

 

[Heliotropic_Rose]

yeah so he's a TOOL fan . . . . .so am I, . . . . . .I don't like thrash/speed type of metals, so no speed isn't the thing that impresses me. I was just stateing that Adam Jones is a very limited guitarist, his technique hasn't changed much over the course of the bands discography. Aside from early day Katatonia records where the evident changes from turning from a death metal band into more of a rock band, I feel they have progressed more than TOOL on a record by record basis since Discouraged One's

EDIT: Magicelf, i agree with a lot of what you say, but just out of curiousity I wonder why you would visit this forum frequently if you're not a huge Katatonia fan.

 

[Lisra]

How about, "a picture's worth a thousand words." Does that gel with you?

Um, do I have to say again that I do not, in fact, care about this?

 

[Lateralus14]

I'm not a huge Katatonia fan and I'm not a huge Tool fan but I own records by both. It's not a matter of me loving a band to the point of bias but knowing both bands music and knowing first hand how much "technique" is needed to play Tools music. Once again, aside from Danny no one in Tool is an outstanding performer.

You stated Tool's guitar work is more percussive and relies on playing "tight" as if staying in time should be hard for a musician

I know sometimes it's hard to think things through with Maynards dick so far in your mouth your brain is being poked but you'll eventually understand that a band that takes 20 years to release 3 decent albums deserves no praise at all. :danceboy: I would fucking hope after 5 years rehearsing they can play 10,000 D chords pretty fucking precisely.

First of all, let's please keep in mind that the people in tool not only have other projects but are lazy as fuck, so their limited output is hardly relevant to their musicianship.

Secondly, I really love how everyone taking the anti-tool position in this thread has been completely obsessed with all the D chords/other power chords in their music and has completely ignored all the other nuances. Katatonia have no song to play live that demands as much focus as the chain of Disposition/Reflection/Triad or Third Eye, for instance.

Thirdly, the "zomg ur suckin maynard's cock cuz u like tool" argument only makes me even more greatly concerned for you. I mean most people that pull that card have some existing mental condition; I'd get it checked out.

Also, I don't know why progression from album to album is relevant to this discussion either.

 

[FlawedCoil82]

There's obvious a lot of biased hate against Tool because they're popular. Any music enthusiast should be thanking their lucky stars that a band like that could be that big in a world like this. They've opened up a lot of doors for other bands. So keep on hating, but in the end they've done something very few have.

This is very true. I was a Tool fan long before I was a fan of Katatonia. But my argument here is rather pointless since I judge whether a band impresses me or not by their vocalist first (whereas most rock/metal fans judge by the music first). The thing I loved about TGCD was that it reminded me in a way of how Tool (or even A Perfect Circle) sounded. As a whole, I find Tool to be more interesting just because their songs never seem to get old. I can pop in ÆNIMA and LATERALUS and still enjoy them as much today as I did when they were released. Bluesky is correct in saying Tool opened a lot of doors for this style of music. I can most definitely hear the Tool/APC influences in Katatonia.

And someone said Maynard is a boring vocalist?! I hate to tell you but Maynard could sing circles around Jonas (if you were indeed implying a comparison between the two). Jonas' style of singing is fantastic for the style of music Katatonia makes and his very subtle melisma vocal techniques are very haunting and beautiful, but he simply lacks the power and range of Maynard. And to this day, Maynard is the one and only vocalist I can think of who can actually scream and make it sound awesome (I hate 99.9998% of all screaming/growling/grunting).

Having said all that though, I was pretty disappointed with 10,000 DAYS. There was way too much filler crap and Maynard's voice was way too subdued in the music (in Katatonia this works great, but with Tool, Maynard's voice should shine and be in the forefront). David Bottrill's absence in bringing out the best of Maynard was sorely missed in this last record. I still have very high hopes for their next release though (whenever that may be). I won't even get started with Maynard's Puscifer project though. uke:
Jack

 

[Lisra]

huh. funny.

I love Moma Sed and Lighten Up,Francis! from Puscifer. Very good vocal performance, nice laid back stuff.

 

[FlawedCoil82]

How? All he does in Puscifer is talk about nonsense in a low, monotone voice over some trip hop synth beats. There is very little vocal work being showcased.

However, I will admit that the live versions of "Momma Sed" and "Vagina Mine" are far superior to the album versions because he actually "sings" instead of talks. The performances are from their recently released digital EP album. Furthermore, the other "new" songs on that release are also given an attempt at actual "singing". Overall, a much better release than his terrible studio debut, but still nowhere near Tool or A Perfect Circle.
Jack