What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)

[Jasonic]

Neil,
No doubt Blackguard's constant touring has resulted in increased sales for the band. I am not going to rehash this entire debate again, other than to say that if you are going to expose yourself THAT much, you better deliver.

I haven't EVER heard anyone say, "Hell yeah!! Blackguard is on this tour" Usually, it's more of, "Really? Blackguard again????"

Kudos to them for hitting the road. I respect ANY band who does this, regardless of what I think of them. If they ever do hit it big, I will be the first to say it is deserved since they would have certainly paid their dues.

I am coming from the perspective though of many who seem to reply with "Them again..." when their name comes up. Just have to be careful if you are going to tour hop.

Finally, I have NO idea what you mean by Stratovarius being shoved down anyone's throat. Their success here in the States was from having the reputation of creating some of the finest power metal ever created, specifically in the form of VISIONS (quite possibly an uncontested top 10 power metal release). This is the major difference b/w Blackguard, Into Eternity, Swashbuckle, etc, etc as opposed to European bands who started out as openers. There was already demand for those bands based on releasing quality material.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

No doubt Blackguard's constant touring has resulted in increased sales for the band.

THANK YOU!!! I've been waiting 9 pages for you to finally see the light

I am not going to rehash this entire debate again, other than to say that if you are going to expose yourself THAT much, you better deliver. I haven't EVER heard anyone say, "Hell yeah!! Blackguard is on this tour" Usually, it's more of, "Really? Blackguard again????"

But are you the typical "random metal fan"? Not sure ... you're one of those who spends all his available free time on message boards posting. And, as Neil pointed out, it doesn't even have to be a true metal fan who gets into BG - the synchronized headbanging worked wonders for Dragonforce in order to pick up a ton of young brand new metal fans, who says it won't work for BG?

Finally, I have NO idea what you mean by Stratovarius being shoved down anyone's throat. Their success here in the States was from having the reputation of creating some of the finest power metal ever created, specifically in the form of VISIONS (quite possibly an uncontested top 10 power metal release). This is the major difference b/w Blackguard, Into Eternity, Swashbuckle, etc, etc as opposed to European bands who started out as openers. There was already demand for those bands based on releasing quality material.

That's a very subjective opinion there ... Visions isn't my favorite Strato disc t.ex. ...

And, if you really want to get into quality vs whatever-else, then Into Eternity's "Dead Or Dreaming" beats each and every single Strato disc (and that comes from a huge Strato fan, who a.o. put on the first 2 shows Strato ever played in Denmark).

c.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I am 50 / 50 on this one.
I suppose it comes down to how BIG of a fan of a genre you are.
In recent years I have been getting into a TON of different stuff from many genres.

For example, I have only first explored "dark metal" (some call it death doom, etc), around 2005ish (Depending on whether or not you would say OPETH falls in this umbrella. Anyhow, I instantly got into bands like Anathema, My Dying Bride, and Katatonia. It wasn't until this year though until I got CDs by Amorphis and Draconian, etc.

as you said Simon, so many bands.

Lots of times, CD purchases are driven by bands you may be going to see live. Lots of factors.

Back to the point AngraRULES was making though, is that I do have to agree that Keepers I and II are essential and mandatory listening for ALL of metal, not even power metal.

Hmm...interesting you think Amorphis is "dark metal." Sure, some of their stuff is dark, but I don't find that they fit the bands like the others you mentioned. In fact, some of their songs can be fairly light and happy in tone in my opinion. In fact, they're one of those bands I think that are more or less an enigma, as there really is no one else that sounds like them.

Totally agree on cd purchases driven by going to see them live. An example of this is Blind Guardian for me. I had some of their material before the tour was announced, and after I finally got my ticket I got the rest of their discography.

Keepers I and II definitely are the cream of the crop though in terms of power metal and those two as you say are DEFINITELY mandatory listening.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Reading comprehension my friend.
I have said MANY times here that I have never even heard Blackguard.
I even said MANY times that I am generalizing by referring to Blackguard since they were the band originally mentioned in this thread.

It's ironic that you criticize my reading comprehension when literally every single one of your posts since I've known you on this board comes off as though you briefly skim over what's said and then slam out a reply for the express purpose of getting your 2 cents in whilst adding no substance to the issue whatsoever. I've read what you've said just fine. You've stated (whether blatant, or through implication) many times throughout this thread that you don't like Blackguard. The fact that you now back-pedal past that to claim you haven't even heard the band and that you openly admit to making generalizations bites you in the butt in the end. How you can't see that is beyond me. Way to go, you've officially proven yourself ignorant on your own cause. How could your opinion, let alone alone your "factual" statements be even taken seriously to begin with man? Either way, the majority of my criticism was more toward Diabolik than it was you, but you're guilty of it too.

Furthermore, how do you know what I know and don't know?
Do you know that I used to have a record label?
Do you know that I have been in bands?
Do you know that I have helped book a tour for a major label band?

Sorry but I don't care. I don't care because all of this is not hard. Anyone can start a label. Anyone can be in a band. Anyone can "help book a tour for a major label band." What anyone cannot do, is create any sort of success with all of these things. THAT is hard. So while I do tip my hat to the fact that you've got the passion to do these things, it doesn't add anything to your argument -- because if any of these things were successful, you'd be in agreement with my posts from the get go.*

You act as if your personal beliefs make this a black and white issue.
It isn't.
There are always outliers to any discussion.

Again, and you insult MY comprehension? I never wrote anywhere that you aren't entitled to your opinion. What I did say though, is that you aren't entitled to present your opinion as objective fact. You clearly DON'T know what "overexposure" is, and as skyrefuge pointed out -- how could you if you never even saw Blackguard live? How would you know? Just because you go on forums and message boards? Since when was THAT a barometer for success? The fact you're even arguing that is baffling. You COULD tell Steve Jobs that you think iPods cannot sell well because you hate iTunes, but you'd be flat-out wrong. So yes, this is a black and white discussion.

Finally, I really don't think overseas bands who were already in demand here in the states are in the same boat as Into Eternity, Mutiny Within, BG, etc, etc. Those bands being eventual headliners was practically a given, due to existing CD sales and demand, though of course their being an opener first helped broaden their exposure.

This is probably the first time you've actually said something that wasn't solely based on your personal opinion -- and is something that I agree with. But then of course, it completely contradicts everything you've said in this entire thread. Again, I have no idea how you expect your arguments to be taken seriously. How do you think the demand for a band is created? Bigtime Euro acts didn't just drop a record and it magically sold. They busted their asses on the road on their home turf and built up a name there. Through coverage, word of mouth, they started selling a few records here and a demand was created. But again, this demand wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the touring. And by the way, guess what? When In Flames, Bodom, Amon Amarth, etc DID get here, they had to bust MORE ass to get to the point where they score high chart-ratings with their current releases.

* if I'm wrong and you're some mega former label manager or A&R I sincerely apologize. I'll be the first to buy you a beer.

 

[Jasonic]

Claus - I have said many times throughout this thread that I was generalizing about all the non-stop touring bands, not just Blackguard. I also admitted I have never listened to them, nor seen them live. It could certainly work for them.

Also, I don't think I would agree that we can compare this to DragonForce. DF's demo (as DragonHeart) was the most downloaded album ever on mp3.com, at least it was at one point in time. There was certainly a ton of buzz about them in the underground before they hit US soil as a touring band. After one headlining run, they went right to the main stage at Ozzfest.

Back to Blackguard, since you think I am picking on them (which I am not), it can certainly work for them, and I truly hope it does. Any opening band hopes to make new fans at all gigs. I was never disagreeing with you on that one. I still just believe there are some downfalls with CONSTANT touring, as they seem to be doing. Also, it sometimes hurts the touring package as a whole. I have seen many people take a pass at seeing bands becuase the undercard was loaded with the handful of constantly touring opening bands.

 

[Jasonic]

Totally agree on cd purchases driven by going to see them live. An example of this is Blind Guardian for me. I had some of their material before the tour was announced, and after I finally got my ticket I got the rest of their discography.

Cool, let's meet up for dinner beforehand @ the Bottom Lounge.
Bob will be there too.

 

[skyrefuge]

if you are going to expose yourself THAT much, you better deliver.

As someone who has actually seen them, I think that they do deliver. Sure, I think that their songs are junk, and their stage act is cliched, but I recognize that I am not their target audience. And as a fellow jaded old fart, neither are you. But since I am blessed with the apparently-rare skill of empathy (the ability to understand the feelings of people who aren't myself, and see things through their viewpoint) I can easily see a younger set being impressed with their energy and stage presence, while being blissfully unaware that their cliches are cliches.

I haven't EVER heard anyone say, "Hell yeah!! Blackguard is on this tour" Usually, it's more of, "Really? Blackguard again????"

How many people have you heard say "Hell yeah!! Justin Bieber is coming!!"? Probably not many, but that doesn't mean people don't say it. Sure, a lot fewer people say it for Blackguard than Justin Bieber, but your acquaintances (who all think much the same as you) are hardly a reliable source to collect data from.

Some comments from their last.fm page:
- I've seen them live twice. Both times Blackguard put on an awesome performance.
- Guys, you create miracles!! Your music is excellent!!!!
- Awesome band, really loved it
- I Love Blackguard they are awesome! And the guys (& gal) are super chill
- The band is absolutely fantastic, can hardly find words to describe their energy and folkish epicness. Hails!!!
- Sława ! Zajebisty wokal + zajebista muza :> Zajebisty zespół \m/

I am coming from the perspective though of many who seem to reply with "Them again..."

I've done a study to see who those "many" people are that you hear say that. My research shows that 50% of those people are really just you, repeating yourself over and over, 40% of them are Bob repeating himself over and over, and 10% are actual other people. So whatever number you have in your head for "many", you can reduce it by a factor of 10 and be closer to the truth.

Finally, I have NO idea what you mean by Stratovarius being shoved down anyone's throat.

No no, nothing to do with Stratovarius's touring. Let me try again. If Stratovarius hadn't acted like Blackguard in shoving themselves in front of you (Blackguard by touring all the time, Stratovarius by a regular CD-release heartbeat on which to base advertisements for themselves), you likely may have never discovered Stratovarius. I was trying to show you that you have first-hand experience at accepting something shoved at you, something that others thought was junk. So if it worked for Stratovarius with you, it can work for Blackguard with other people.

Neil

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Also I love how people here are talking about Stratovarius as this huge band. Polaris did 800 first week. That's pretty horrible for a band with such an extensive back catalog...

And that's the thing. In all honesty, bands like Stratovarius probably don't care about breaking into the US. I said this in another thread moons ago, but it's true. Alot of European bands don't want to be In Flames or Behemoth and "overexpose themselves." There's too much money to be lost in opening for a Rockstar Mayem or Ozzfest and starting from the ground up in order to get the band to be as big as it is in the US as it is in Europe and these guys are too old to do it. They did it once already, why bother doing it again? So instead of hauling ass in the US, they take a smaller headlining opportunity and get a decent guarantee with fair merch sales but it does nothing to strengthen their fanbase.

 

[Jasonic]

Bigtime Euro acts didn't just drop a record and it magically sold. They busted their asses on the road on their home turf and built up a name there. Through coverage, word of mouth, they started selling a few records here and a demand was created. But again, this demand wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the touring. And by the way, guess what? When In Flames, Bodom, Amon Amarth, etc DID get here, they had to bust MORE ass to get to the point where they score high chart-ratings with their current releases.

Absolutely!!! I am making my statements in regards to opening bands who tour relentlessly on US soil. As stated previously, I NEVER said I disliked Blackguard. You deducted that on your own. I haven't heard a lick of their music. They are just the direct subject of my overall thoughts on bands who overexpose themselves in a live setting. So, therefore, speaking then solely of performing on US soil, the difference is that Euro bands (Who I agree toured their asses off in their hometurf), are in demand by the time they hit US soil.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

How many people have you heard say "Hell yeah!! Justin Bieber is coming!!"? Probably not many, but that doesn't mean people don't say it. Sure, a lot fewer people say it for Blackguard than Justin Bieber, but your acquaintances (who all think much the same as you) are hardly a reliable source to collect data from.

Some comments from their last.fm page:
- I've seen them live twice. Both times Blackguard put on an awesome performance.
- Guys, you create miracles!! Your music is excellent!!!!
- Awesome band, really loved it
- I Love Blackguard they are awesome! And the guys (& gal) are super chill
- The band is absolutely fantastic, can hardly find words to describe their energy and folkish epicness. Hails!!!
- Sława ! Zajebisty wokal + zajebista muza :> Zajebisty zespół m/


Neil

You, DcCowboys, Claus, and Matt. If I was gay, I'd be in love with all 4 of you.

 

[nomisofsiman]

The amount of music out there far exceeds anyone's ability to be even aware of it all, much less listen to it. Thus, to get people to actually hear your music, bands need to use a variety of tricks to cajole people into listening, and out-compete the thousands of other bands vying for that same prize. One trick is to write songs that people tell their friends about. Another is to spend a lot of money on straight advertising. For bands without those abilities or resources, a third trick is to get attached to tours. If there are two bands with the exact same songs, I hope we can all agree that the band that tours their ass off is going to end up with more fans than the band that stays at home.

This is pretty much what I was getting at a number of posts ago. There are a lot of different ways for bands to get their name out there and honestly, it just depends on the band what choice or combination of choices works best.

THANK YOU!!! I've been waiting 9 pages for you to finally see the light

I agree with it as well (as surprised as you may be) that certainly they've had increased sales due to them touring. The main thing I was saying (and I think got misinterpreted) was I just feel they tour a little too much, which leads them to being "that band..." Like Jason, I don't want to start this argument up again, just saying...

 

[Jasonic]

As someone who has actually seen them, I think that they do deliver. Sure, I think that their songs are junk, and their stage act is cliched, but I recognize that I am not their target audience. And as a fellow jaded old fart, neither are you. But since I am blessed with the apparently-rare skill of empathy (the ability to understand the feelings of people who aren't myself, and see things through their viewpoint) I can easily see a younger set being impressed with their energy and stage presence, while being blissfully unaware that their cliches are cliches.

Good, well then I wish them the best!
It's funny, as you all seem to agree with me while disagreeing.
You are in agreement that VERY few from the underground metal fans want to see them, yet you think they appeal to the casual fan who will discover them.

As far as your statistics, the real world exists outside of this forum, so to tally up the comments solely in this thread is simply absurd. I seriously expected better from you Neil, as you are usually better than that!!!

 

[Jasonic]

Also I love how people here are talking about Stratovarius as this huge band. Polaris did 800 first week. That's pretty horrible for a band with such an extensive back catalog...

Well, that isn't THAT bad these days, where many mainstream acts break top 10s with sales in the 1,000 to 5,000 range first week.

I don't think anyone is saying Strato is a commercial success, but a staple as far as essential power metal listening.

 

[Jasonic]

I agree with it as well (as surprised as you may be) that certainly they've had increased sales due to them touring. The main thing I was saying (and I think got misinterpreted) was I just feel they tour a little too much, which leads them to being "that band..." Like Jason, I don't want to start this argument up again, just saying...

This. Period.

People are taking this to mean I am hating on Blackguard.
I don't care if this is Blackguard or if a new band I loved did it.
There are always risks of having the stigma as being the "house band" for package tours. Tis all I am saying.

I am not refuting in any way the benefits of touring relentlessly.
I was simply pointing out the pitfalls of it as well, which seem to be overlooked.

Has nothing to do with who they are, whether if Jasonic likes them or not, or if they are targeted towards me or not, etc, etc, etc..........

 

[AeonicSlumber]

As stated previously, I NEVER said I disliked Blackguard. You deducted that on your own.

Eh, dude, I call bull. I'm not going to comb through this thread because it's really really pointless, but if you didn't think that way you wouldn't have posted that doomy whatever Kodex band's song and proclaimed that their awesomess alone will attract more fans than Blackguard touring. If your argument is that "quality" is the true benchmark for success, then clearly Blackguard is inferior to Kodex, according to you.

Therefore... how can you say that if you've never heard Blackguard?

See what I mean? I just wish you just stopped arguing me because I hate to keep handing you shovels to dig yourself deeper with. Your e-arms must really be hurting.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Well, that isn't THAT bad these days, where many mainstream acts break top 10s with sales in the 1,000 to 5,000 range first week.

I don't think anyone is saying Strato is a commercial success, but a staple as far as essential power metal listening.

Not if you ask me. Riffless. Horrible vocals. Don't get me started. I'll take classic Helloween, Rhapsody, (old) Iced Earth, etc over 'em anyday. To each his or her own though!

Also lol, 1-5,000 is not the top 10. You still need to sell over 30,000 records to be in the top 10. When it's a good industry period, you need to be in the 70-100,000 range to be in the top 10. In a bad industry period like now-ish, where most metal labels don't release product because they can't compete with Christmas compilations and such, the standards lower a bit. Never though, has it been the point where a record can hit the top 10 with 5,000 CDs sold lol...

 

[grogg]

Man, this is some good shit. Ought to be a VISA commercial:

$10 for a Blackguard mug
$30 for a cool Blackguard shirt
$50 for 2 tickets to the next show Blackguard opens up for

Reading the forum discussion on Blackguard tours.......PRICELESS!

 

[Jasonic]

Therefore... how can you say that if you've never heard Blackguard?

You admitted you haven't read the whole thread, so allow me to explain.

I simply brought up bands like Atlantean Kodex as a band that has generated a lot of buzz in the underground community based on their music, and not from being on tour after tour after tour. There is demand for them, based solely on their musical ability. I never specifically stated that I have proof that they would outsell Blackguard. Just saying that they are getting their name out there based on their ability. Claus made a statement that these days you HAVE to get out and tour relentlessly to get your name out there. Sure, it does help. I was just pointing out there are plenty of bands creating a buzz who rarely tour.

And completely unrelated, I find it hilarious when folks like yourself write off bands I recommend, saying things like, "Kodex who"? Many of the same people who used to make the same comments about Tyr and While Heaven Wept.

 

[Jasonic]

Not if you ask me. Riffless. Horrible vocals. Don't get me started. I'll take classic Helloween, Rhapsody, (old) Iced Earth, etc over 'em anyday. To each his or her own though!

Same here, though I still like Strato.
I think they redeemed themselves nicely with Polaris.
Definitely made up for Elements I through the S/T.

Well, maybe some day we can throw back a few beers, and jam through the Helloween discography!

 

[Jasonic]

Man, this is some good shit. Ought to be a VISA commercial:

$10 for a Blackguard mug
$30 for a cool Blackguard shirt
$50 for 2 tickets to the next show Blackguard opens up for

Reading the forum discussion on Blackguard tours.......PRICELESS!

This is the greatest thread in the history of Diabolik's pants!