What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)

[dcowboys311]

Evile played for 2 big crowds as an opener early in the year and the spring. Then thier first show back in the fall drew 10 - 20. Forbidden is what drew people to the show. Is it that hard???? Sure Evile are a good band with some talent behind them, but playing here every other month is not helping them get people to see them. Out of the 4 bands they were the one who had the weakest response last night....just sayin.

And like I said, in Atlanta they had a higher crowd response than Gama Bomb and Bonded by Blood. Fell only behind Forbidden and Overkill.

But Atlanta must be an outlier, as all this overtouring is surely killing Evile's impact.

 

[Diabolik]

And on almost every tour thread, you'll find even more people saying "SWEET I'LL BE THERE!!!"

Good to know that anybody who doesn't share your opinion is a sheep.

Did you ask every single person why they chose not to attend the Evile/Bonded by Blood show in October? Did you take a poll? Or are you just making assumptions of their reasons for not attending?
Was it a weeknight? How much was it? Where was it? Who were the other bands playing? What time did it start? Did you stop to think that maybe some of these factors played into people's reasons for not going?

But nope. It's overtouring.

It was at the same venue. Same time. It was a sunday show. This show was a saturday. But fans of bands should not even think about that. From what you and Claus think....if a band tours they draw so they all should have been there. Instead of Forbidden headlining it was Early Man. But that shouldnt matter since people who were fans should have come to see Evile and Bonded By Blood. Oh wait....everyone knew they would be back with a better line up in a month and then again in Feb with Death Angel. People in line were talking about the show last month and why they didnt go. So it wasnt like I am just making this up. I happen to like Evile. This isnt a dig at them. I am just stating facts that I witnessed.

 

[dcowboys311]

Fans of bands don't have lives. Fans of bands don't have work Monday morning at 7AM! Hail and Kill!!!

Neither Claus nor I have said that any touring band will draw. All we've said is that touring a lot won't hurt your draw in the long run. Don't put words in my mouth.

You can't expect every show to have increases in numbers as there are a variety of factors that affect draw. You have still failed to prove after 21 pages that it is overexposure that hurts these bands! All you've shown is that there are some bands who don't tour who do well, which nobody argued against in the first place.

I don't even like Evile but this is ridiculous. Do you know what the draw would have been like had it been only Evile on that bill and not both Evile and Bonded by Blood? That's half the show, after all. Quite a big difference.

 

[Diabolik]

Fans of bands don't have lives. Fans of bands don't have work Monday morning at 7AM! Hail and Kill!!!

Neither Claus nor I have said that any touring band will draw. All we've said is that touring a lot won't hurt your draw in the long run. Don't put words in my mouth.

You can't expect every show to have increases in numbers as there are a variety of factors that affect draw. You have still failed to prove after 21 pages that it is overexposure that hurts these bands! All you've shown is that there are some bands who don't tour who do well, which nobody argued against in the first place.

I don't even like Evile but this is ridiculous. Do you know what the draw would have been like had it been only Evile on that bill and not both Evile and Bonded by Blood? That's half the show, after all. Quite a big difference.

Lets say that the Evile / Bonded By Blood didnt play on the Forbidden show....I am sure more people would have turned out for thier show opening for Early Man a month earlier then. But people knew they could see them a month later on a better line up with Forbidden and Gama Bomb. Not everyone works at 7 AM either. I happen to work evenings so going to shows on sunday doesnt effect me. I still didnt go since I knew I was going to see the same show a month later.

 

[Jasonic]

Neither Claus nor I have said that any touring band will draw. All we've said is that touring a lot won't hurt your draw in the long run. Don't put words in my mouth.

But it COULD, and this is where you are missing the point.

If you suck or are only so-so, and tour 4 or more times a year, you WILL fall subject to "I will catch them next time," or "I will wait to see them at a better show"

It's simple economics. Supply and demand. Look it up jackass.

 

[dcowboys311]

Awww, you mad Jasonic?

That's not the touring that's killing them, and this is where YOU are missing the point. It's the part where you 'suck or are only so-so'.

 

[dcowboys311]

Additionally, and I don't expect you to fulfill this request as it's been asked of you numerous times throughout the thread and you have continually failed to comply:

Please list 5 bands whose demise has been a result of overtouring and overtouring only, and not a result of lackluster music, bad marketing, etc.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

But it COULD, and this is where you are missing the point.

If you suck or are only so-so, and tour 4 or more times a year, you WILL fall subject to "I will catch them next time," or "I will wait to see them at a better show"

It's simple economics. Supply and demand. Look it up jackass.

Jason, I think YOU are the one missing the point here - for these bands it is not about "supply and demand" or "simple economics". There is a plan behind it all, a method to the madness if you will - the bands are touring so much in order to subject themselves to as many people as possible. If they were just trying to get out and promote their current release, then they wouldn't go out on support tours with a billion bands where they might get only 20 minutes play time per night. What they are trying to do is make sure EVERYONE who goes to a metal show - be it a power metal show or a death metal show - knows about them. They don't care if you'll "catch them next time" - the entire purpose for them is to get out there so the death metal fans who saw them at "Brutal Death Kill Corpse" will remember them, and the power metal fans who saw them supporting "Opus Fantasia Suite Solo" will remember them too. And as I've said before (several times), the VENUES will remember them and be willing to book them in the future. Things aren't just about what happens "tomorrow"- it might also be what happens "the day after...".

c.

 

[nomisofsiman]

But it COULD, and this is where you are missing the point.

If you suck or are only so-so, and tour 4 or more times a year, you WILL fall subject to "I will catch them next time," or "I will wait to see them at a better show"

And to reiterate, this is not a black and white answer as some people are making it seem. Touring a lot can help, but as Jason and Bob mentioned, it CAN hurt in a case such as this where you know they will be on an upcoming tour. At overexposure can hurt, but I think only in certain rare circumstances. When you're in certain cities at least once a month, that's a problem.

Also, I believe someone mentioned this on the previous page hinting at Jason, Bob and I thinking that touring a lot is bad. That is not what we're saying whatsoever. Blackguard and very few select others, if any others at the moment, just tour a little too much in our opinion. That's it. Certainly touring helps bands I'm not disputing that. Another reason why there is such a disagreement here may also be like has been said that some people in certain towns get more tours than others. In other cases, touring schedules may be routed in a way where Chicago gets these certain bands monthly or more, whereas other places possibly like Atlanta gets them once every couple - four months or so.

 

[dcowboys311]

How is waiting to see bands on another announced tour hurting them though? I would imagine that by definition, hurting bands would mean to not go see them AT ALL, not just skip a few of their shows. Believe it or not, a lot of people don't have the disposable income, desire, or time to see every band they like 8 times a year, whether or not that opportunity is available or not. How is the band suffering by people wanting to see them?

 

[Diabolik]

Claus....we see you point. Sure that can work but it mostly works against bands who are doing that. This was the point of the whole thread. Unless a band can tour 8 months out of the year and still write amazing albums making people want to come and see them....this wont work. I still have not seen a band do this where they can write consistantly good material, tour non stop and even keep the same band members in the band. Either the quality of the music gets hurt because they are rushing to write songs to get out on the road again, or touring non stop to the point where people dont even bother seeing them each time even though exposing themselves to more people who just dont care because they are no "that band" who is on every tour, or looses members quickly because they cant live the touring lifestyle which in effect is the first nail in the coffin for the band.

Touring to much can kill a band. When I was heavily involved with the D.I.Y. punk scene, I witnessed 2 larger acts self destruct while on tour and break up because of the touring. They just couldnt hack it and each band memeber got on each others nerves and the fact that they were playing in front of 20 people if they were lucky a night. I have seen bands who toured 8 months out of the year and thier next release lacked greatly because of it. Thus making people not wanting to see them next time because the new album wasnt good.

We shall see in 10 years where Blackguard are. My money is on the "where are they now and the what band?" file.

 

[Diabolik]

And to reiterate, this is not a black and white answer as some people are making it seem. Touring a lot can help, but as Jason and Bob mentioned, it CAN hurt in a case such as this where you know they will be on an upcoming tour. At overexposure can hurt, but I think only in certain rare circumstances. When you're in certain cities at least once a month, that's a problem.

Also, I believe someone mentioned this on the previous page hinting at Jason, Bob and I thinking that touring a lot is bad. That is not what we're saying whatsoever. Blackguard and very few select others, if any others at the moment, just tour a little too much in our opinion. That's it. Certainly touring helps bands I'm not disputing that. Another reason why there is such a disagreement here may also be like has been said that some people in certain towns get more tours than others. In other cases, touring schedules may be routed in a way where Chicago gets these certain bands monthly or more, whereas other places possibly like Atlanta gets them once every couple - four months or so.

exactly.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Jason, I think YOU are the one missing the point here - for these bands it is not about "supply and demand" or "simple economics". There is a plan behind it all, a method to the madness if you will - the bands are touring so much in order to subject themselves to as many people as possible. If they were just trying to get out and promote their current release, then they wouldn't go out on support tours with a billion bands where they might get only 20 minutes play time per night. What they are trying to do is make sure EVERYONE who goes to a metal show - be it a power metal show or a death metal show - knows about them. They don't care if you'll "catch them next time" - the entire purpose for them is to get out there so the death metal fans who saw them at "Brutal Death Kill Corpse" will remember them, and the power metal fans who saw them supporting "Opus Fantasia Suite Solo" will remember them too. And as I've said before (several times), the VENUES will remember them and be willing to book them in the future. Things aren't just about what happens "tomorrow"- it might also be what happens "the day after...".

c.

And this does make perfect sense for them to be known by all metal fans. I understand it completely from their point of view. However, metal and most music fans in general have the point of view where they want to see different and diverse tours. And for the metal fan on the fence in terms of going to a show and for examples sake, Munitiny Within and Blackguard are the openers, they may decide to skip it because they've seen them the last couple shows they've been at. This does happen and yes, I know people could just avoid those openers, which would make sense; however, not all people think like that.

 

[dcowboys311]

Yeah but you're assuming that every concert-goer has good taste. The average metalhead doesn't care about diving into the underground scene. Maybe to people like you or Jason, Blackguard sucks, but to the average Headbanger's Ball/Liquid Metal/etc fan, they're the greatest thing ever. Bands like Blackguard aren't targeting the Cruz del Sur crowd!!!

The original argument focused on bands losing fans and not being able to draw as a result of overtouring. Not internal problems and band politics. I mean, bands have problems over everything -- touring too much, not touring enough, not listening to the drummer's input, etc. You can't seriously use that as a valid argument.

 

[Diabolik]

And this does make perfect sense for them to be known by all metal fans. I understand it completely from their point of view. However, metal and most music fans in general have the point of view where they want to see different and diverse tours. And for the metal fan on the fence in terms of going to a show and for examples sake, Munitiny Within and Blackguard are the openers, they may decide to skip it because they've seen them the last couple shows they've been at. This does happen and yes, I know people could just avoid those openers, which would make sense; however, not all people think like that.

I do if it is for a headlining act I have seen a few times. I blew off the Edguy / Kamelot tour because I dont like Kamelot and the openers other than Eduguy blew so I didnt go.

 

[Diabolik]

Yeah but you're assuming that every concert-goer has good taste. The average metalhead doesn't care about diving into the underground scene. Maybe to people like you or Jason, Blackguard sucks, but to the average Headbanger's Ball/Liquid Metal/etc fan, they're the greatest thing ever. Bands like Blackguard aren't targeting the Cruz del Sur crowd!!!

The original argument focused on bands losing fans and not being able to draw as a result of overtouring. Not internal problems and band politics. I mean, bands have problems over everything -- touring too much, not touring enough, not listening to the drummer's input, etc. You can't seriously use that as a valid argument.

I am far from the Cruz Del Sur crowd. I am all over the place. From power metal to traditional to folk to thrash. I am a fan of good quality music. To the point when Metal Haven was around there were people who waited to get disc because I never recommended them a bad disc before.

Sure there are metal heads who will pretty much go and see anyone. These are the same ones who dont buy merch but just go to drink and slam. These are the same ones who dont stay in the music scene but vanish a year or so later and move onto something else. I have seen this for 2 decades.

 

[dcowboys311]

I am far from the Cruz Del Sur crowd. I am all over the place. From power metal to traditional to folk to thrash. I am a fan of good quality music. To the point when Metal Haven was around there were people who waited to get disc because I never recommended them a bad disc before.

Sure there are metal heads who will pretty much go and see anyone. These are the same ones who dont buy merch but just go to drink and slam. These are the same ones who dont stay in the music scene but vanish a year or so later and move onto something else. I have seen this for 2 decades.

Cool, Metal EXP +100.

Do you think the guys behind Blackguard care if the people who listen to them are true metallers? Or maybe they just want people to come out to their shows and have fun, regardless of their level of activity within the scene? A ticket sold is a ticket sold.

 

[Diabolik]

Cool, Metal EXP +100.

Do you think the guys behind Blackguard care if the people who listen to them are true metallers? Or maybe they just want people to come out to their shows and have fun, regardless of their level of activity within the scene? A ticket sold is a ticket sold.

I highly doubt they just want people to come out and have fun...if they wanted that they would play locally to thier freinds. It is a business, they want to sell disc and make money. But a ticket sold isnt a ticket sold for that band. Sure they are seeing money from it but have them out on thier own and see how it goes for them. I highly doubt any good.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Claus....we see you point. Sure that can work but it mostly works against bands who are doing that. This was the point of the whole thread.

Where do you see that? How can you prove that? Show me the bands where it has worked against them ... you still haven't proven that. If that's the whole point of this entire thread, then you have nothing to show for.
Show me exactly where (with data that proves your point, please) it MOSTLY works against bands to be touring as much as possible. Please!

Unless a band can tour 8 months out of the year and still write amazing albums making people want to come and see them....this wont work. I still have not seen a band do this where they can write consistantly good material, tour non stop and even keep the same band members in the band.

I bet you that Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Metallica, Slayer, Testament, U2, Madonna, etc would argue with you on this. All the big artists tour 8+ months a year, and people still buy their stuff. Where is the lack in quality you're talking about which happens when you tour?

c.

 

[Diabolik]

I bet you that Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Metallica, Slayer, Testament, U2, Madonna, etc would argue with you on this. All the big artists tour 8+ months a year, and people still buy their stuff. Where is the lack in quality you're talking about which happens when you tour?

c.

Metallica take off a year or so from the road when recording it seems. Madonna has people writing her stuff for her. Testament didnt tour for years so I dont know where you are getting that one from and the last Testament disc blew. Slayer have released the same disc over and over. I never hear anyone asking for Motley Crue to play new stuff...same goes for Def Leppard when they play live. U2 doesnt exist to me....I cant stand Bono.