What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)

[nomisofsiman]

Oh Bob I meant to comment on this earlier. You really think TYR are overexposed? They've toured here, yes but I certainly wouldn't classify them as overexposed. I think with them it comes down to two things. The headline dates they've had here have been very poorly marketed and secondly, they're another one of these bands that just isn't at the level where they should be headlining here in the states. The same problem that Circle II Circle has in my opinion. People did seem to like TYR's last disc though, so I wouldn't say they're overexposed or are even doing all that bad. I just think they're jumping the gun a bit in terms of touring the states.

 

[Diabolik]

Well not really, because that ratio would only work if both bands were around for the same amount of time. Blackguard has an EP and a full length, Agalloch has 5 full lengths, splits, EPs, etc and have been around for a decade. Bands accumulate fans (or at least, that's the goal) over time, and the rate of fans should grow exponentially higher over time. So in other words, Agalloch has 3.44 times the number of Blackguard fans NOW, but in 10 years and Blackguard has done the same kind of backbreaking touring they're doing now the rate of the fans they collect per year would be much higher than Agalloch's. Comprende?

in 10 years if both bands are broken up....Agalloch will have a legacy of quality releases why Blackguard will be in "who was that band that always toured?" file. You still never see anyone posting Blackguard samples for people to check out just because they are good songs.

 

[Diabolik]

Oh Bob I meant to comment on this earlier. You really think TYR are overexposed? They've toured here, yes but I certainly wouldn't classify them as overexposed. I think with them it comes down to two things. The headline dates they've had here have been very poorly marketed and secondly, they're another one of these bands that just isn't at the level where they should be headlining here in the states. The same problem that Circle II Circle has in my opinion. People did seem to like TYR's last disc though, so I wouldn't say they're overexposed or are even doing all that bad. I just think they're jumping the gun a bit in terms of touring the states.

I agree....in terms that is what I was going for. While there are bands who I would love to see 4 times a year but even with bands I really like it wouldnt kill me to miss them. To me Tyr has become one of those bands now. To me to get out and see them the undercard needs to be good. I saw Tyr play an amazing show at Capones next to the Pearl Room. It was amazing and nothing could top that for me. So like I was saying....for me to go see them it would have to be something extra there to get me to go.

 

[Diabolik]

Also, why would you care so much about wanting to hang out with someone you don't know on the internet? How does it makes him gutless just because he doesn't like you enough to want to meet you? How about you drop the ego please. You're not the center of the universe.

The reason I say this is because at various times on the Powerfest forum he mentioned he saw me. There have been lots of people who I have argueed with online and when we ended up meeting at a show we became friends. There was one guy who literally wanted to beat me up and now we have a good laugh about it. I heard from a few PP attendies who I meet up with at shows that one time Neil wouldnt come down to talk to them because I was there. To me that is sad and pathetic. Ask lots of the people who know me personally here.....I am rather nice and funny and fun to hang out with at shows.

 

[nomisofsiman]

The reason I say this is because at various times on the Powerfest forum he mentioned he saw me. There have been lots of people who I have argueed with online and when we ended up meeting at a show we became friends. There was one guy who literally wanted to beat me up and now we have a good laugh about it. I heard from a few PP attendies who I meet up with at shows that one time Neil wouldnt come down to talk to them because I was there. To me that is sad and pathetic. Ask lots of the people who know me personally here.....I am rather nice and funny and fun to hang out with at shows.

Honestly I think basing how someone is in terms of what they say on a message board does not = how they are in person. Totally different story, plus with it just being words (online) things can be taken out of context so easily.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

The reason I say this is because at various times on the Powerfest forum he mentioned he saw me. There have been lots of people who I have argueed with online and when we ended up meeting at a show we became friends. There was one guy who literally wanted to beat me up and now we have a good laugh about it. I heard from a few PP attendies who I meet up with at shows that one time Neil wouldnt come down to talk to them because I was there. To me that is sad and pathetic. Ask lots of the people who know me personally here.....I am rather nice and funny and fun to hang out with at shows.

Aww Bob I bet you're a big huggy bear. I'd hang out with you, boo.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Also, goddamn this thread is long.

Diabolik makes a good point about Tyr. I would hope they wait a little while before coming back to the States. I've seen 'em four times now. All four times they've neglected to play "The Edge." Until they re-insert it into their normal set, and add the 15-minute "Land", I need not see them again for a bit.

 

[Prog_Please]

Well not really, because that ratio would only work if both bands were around for the same amount of time. Blackguard has an EP and a full length, Agalloch has 5 full lengths, splits, EPs, etc and have been around for a decade. Bands accumulate fans (or at least, that's the goal) over time, and the rate of fans should grow exponentially higher over time. So in other words, Agalloch has 3.44 times the number of Blackguard fans NOW, but in 10 years and Blackguard has done the same kind of backbreaking touring they're doing now the rate of the fans they collect per year would be much higher than Agalloch's. Comprende?

Where is your evidence that the rate of fans should grow exponentially?!! I WANT FACTS!!! How do YOU know its not a linear relationship? Hmm?

The only way I can think of it as being exponential is if you had 2 fans that each told another, making it 4 fans, and then 8, etc. But still, that's assuming the primary way for bands to gain fans is by word of mouth. I don't see how excessive touring correlates to an exponential increase in fan-base down the road.

I really don't care if the statistic is a good one or not. I didn't even come up with it. You should be comprendoing (I guess the verb should be explicar, but w/e) the original guy who brought it up (even though he did say the statistic itself wasn't perfect and was flawed, so he's not at fault either). My point was merely that someone used a statistic to prove a point and I felt they left out part of the story.

Oh, and your statement based on the last.fm data: "So in other words, Agalloch has 3.44 times the number of Blackguard fans NOW" is totally wrong.

Lets review some math:
Agalloch current fans (aka listeners): 171457
Blackguard current fans (aka listeners): 9053
(Agalloch fans)/(Blackguard fans) = 19
Thus using basic mathematics, the correct statement would be "So in other words, Agalloch has 19 times the number of Blackguard fans NOW".

Comprende?

 

[Diabolik]

Aww Bob I bet you're a big huggy bear. I'd hang out with you, boo.

thank you...I am as warm as a Thanksgiving Day turkey just out of the oven.

 

[Diabolik]

Also, goddamn this thread is long.

Diabolik makes a good point about Tyr. I would hope they wait a little while before coming back to the States. I've seen 'em four times now. All four times they've neglected to play "The Edge." Until they re-insert it into their normal set, and add the 15-minute "Land", I need not see them again for a bit.

They played it when they did thier first headlining set. It is my favorite song by them and I nearly pooped my pants when they played it since every band has a long runnng joke of not playing my favorite songs live.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Well, I missed out on the headlining portion of that tour.

It was because the awesome package of Tyr, Alestorm, and the might Suidakra got lumped in with the half-shitty, half-fucking AWESOME original Scion Rock Fest in Atlanta. The Tyr package was relegated to festival openers (all of them) and they played at the smallest stage of four in the fest. Each had less than 30 minutes to play. Tyr did not play "The Edge." I was a sad panda.

 

[Diabolik]

that blows. Capones / Pearl Room added on a few other openers and I was scared that set times were going to get cut short since it kind of started late too on top of that. It ended up being an amazing show since it was in a place not even set up for shows. Reminded me of the old punk shows where they just set up and play. I was pretty much right as close as you could get without being in the band and they played everything I wanted to hear. Great intense set. Nothing can top that night for them for me. When "The Edge" came on everyone was singing along. It was great. Hopefully you will be able to see them play it love once.

 

[Pellaz]

Diabolik makes a good point about Tyr. I would hope they wait a little while before coming back to the States. I've seen 'em four times now. All four times they've neglected to play "The Edge." Until they re-insert it into their normal set, and add the 15-minute "Land", I need not see them again for a bit.

And on that note, if they WERE to return as a headliner, and made it public that they would be playing those songs (particularly "Land") on the tour, that could be a tool for increasing their draw for fans who are (allegedly) jaded or otherwise teetering on the fence.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Yes.

 

[Diabolik]

Did any of the Blackguard Chicago fans go to the show last night? was it corwded? just curious.

 

[Corsair]

And on that note, if they WERE to return as a headliner, and made it public that they would be playing those songs (particularly "Land") on the tour, that could be a tool for increasing their draw for fans who are (allegedly) jaded or otherwise teetering on the fence.

*raises hand...sort of.*

I still really love the everloving shit out of Eric the Red, however, and count it among my absolute favorite albums. If they were to ever play that in it's entirety...


I just hope that 'by the light of the northern star' doesn't represent a permanent change in the band's sonic direction because, while it is a pretty damn good album, it just kinda feels like they were pressured into recording it, sounding like it did because of how they're being promoted on tours with other, heavier and faster bands. I mean, even the album art itself is pretty indicative:

The Original Release:

Rerelease:

I kinda feel like the latter case is almost misleading. The second one looks like you'd be getting something that sounded like Ensiferum or Equilibrium. Not to judge a book by it's cover or anything, but I think one of the reasons they've been relatively slow to gain a large fanbase in the US is probably because they feel/sound somewhat out of place in the rosters they've been on, and their most recent offering seems somewhat an attempt to appeal more to -that- crowd.

Not that there's really any -better- group of bands to put them with; Bathory obviously isn't going to be touring any time soon, Falkenbach is just one guy (and a guy that gives me the creeps on top of that; doesn't do live shows) Gjallarhorn and Doomsword would probably have been more appropriate runningmates, but AFAIK, neither of them are still active.

So, at least in my opinion, as far as touring/promotion goes, Tyr is pretty much boned, lol.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Yeah, Tyr is an oddball in their own "genre". I'd think they'd appeal to more prog and power fans, but other than ProgPower, that's not the kind of tour they've been involved in.

 

[Corsair]

Yeah, Tyr is an oddball in their own "genre". I'd think they'd appeal to more prog and power fans, but other than ProgPower, that's not the kind of tour they've been involved in.

And even then they're blackballed by a significant portion of the PP base; Some pretty damn mean (and often downright incorrect.) things were said about Tyr when they were announced for the last PP, that I feel likely would not have been said had they made use of an image/cultural basis other than that of Vikings, which, to me, somewhat affirms the axiom that people tend to listen with their eyes. You know. Too prog to be viking, too viking to be prog.

So, I can understand and even sympathize with many of the gripes directed towards blackguard, but those same gripes don't apply to every band that falls anywhere under the "folk or viking" blanket. I mean, I feel like Blackguard is categorically, one of the 'safest' bands to adopt the title, but if that's what -they- like doing then more power to 'em. Not everyone wants to be on the bleeding-edge of originality, some people just want to rock out, y'know?

And that's...

Okay!

 

[Jasonic]

Not seeing a positive return from their live performances means that no one was latching on to them, and is a very reasonable reason to put a band to bed; it's an indicator that your band just isn't what people are looking for at the time. This may very well happen to Blackguard eventually, but that doesn't mean their death will be due to "overexposure", it will be due to "not being good enough".

B-I-N-G-O!!!
Isn't this what I have been talking about all week Neil?????

If you are going to overexpose, you better deliver!

This is why we keep bringing up Agalloch as the anti-thesis of the road warriors who hope to gain fans by getting in their faces as much as possible. If you have the chops, then it might pay off. But if you don't, it's deadly.

There's just way too many fish in the sea of overtouring.
I can't think of a band I have heard from this sea where people go, "man, you have GOT to see this band live" I honestly haven't.

Per your other comment about luck, I would say it is even more that 50% luck. MANY bands get signed all the time, right? No label can equittably dish out tour and promotional support. If your album comes out at the same cycle as 5 other bands they want to push more, you are screwed!!!!!!!

 

[adaher]

I agree that overexposure is bad unless the fans are always clamoring for more. And if you didn't like the output the first time, I doubt you'll like it the second or third time barring evolution of the band.

I don't like Blackguard or Into Eternity. I do like Powerglove.

here's what gets me about these US tour packages. First, why would you have a more extreme band opening for a power metal band? What, there are NO power metal acts that can join these tours? Why aren't Seven Kingdoms or Theocracy all over the country on these tours?

And is there any reason why European bands can't be packaged together as on the abortive Sonata/Nightwish tour? Or Strato/Pagan's Mind? Why does a band like Leprous open for Edguy? Or Blackguard for Kamelot? Bringing Amaranthe to the US would be much cooler.