In today's digital age, I would have assumed touring to get a bands name out to the masses was less important as plastering their name all over the 'Net. I just thought touring today was about re-cooperating a lot of the monies lost from sales. Nobody goes to concerts anymore without knowing who they are seeing, no?
What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)
- Thread starter Palabra de Dios
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In today's digital age, I would have assumed touring to get a bands name out to the masses was less important as plastering their name all over the 'Net. I just thought touring today was about re-cooperating a lot of the monies lost from sales. Nobody goes to concerts anymore without knowing who they are seeing, no?
Jasonic
Doom On!
I am just going to make a couple final statements here, for now at least, since my workday is almost up and we are approaching a holiday weekend.
1) Yes - touring IS important. It is a sure way to get your name out there and satisfy your label, if you are on one
2) You have to be selective with your tours, and span them out appropriately. As stated before, there are many touring bands who will have more than one upcoming show in a given area, or even the same venue!!! This leads to the whole, "I will catch them at that show"
3) Touring is great, but you really need to have something unique. Now this is where no two bands will be alike. Some younger bands definitely target the mall metal kids where all you need is some synchronized headbanging and swear words from the stage to win over the crowd (Ever see TAKING DAWN live?? Sheesh!!!)
4) There will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be a number of factors that contribute to a band's success or failure. Touring is just one piece of the large pie we have debated here for days.
5) HOLY SHIT DOES AGALLOCH GET A LOT OF LISTENS on LAST.FM!
1) Yes - touring IS important. It is a sure way to get your name out there and satisfy your label, if you are on one
2) You have to be selective with your tours, and span them out appropriately. As stated before, there are many touring bands who will have more than one upcoming show in a given area, or even the same venue!!! This leads to the whole, "I will catch them at that show"
3) Touring is great, but you really need to have something unique. Now this is where no two bands will be alike. Some younger bands definitely target the mall metal kids where all you need is some synchronized headbanging and swear words from the stage to win over the crowd (Ever see TAKING DAWN live?? Sheesh!!!)
4) There will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be a number of factors that contribute to a band's success or failure. Touring is just one piece of the large pie we have debated here for days.
5) HOLY SHIT DOES AGALLOCH GET A LOT OF LISTENS on LAST.FM!
Jasonic
Doom On!
Jasonic
Doom On!
Well, it is certainly a lot easier to check out bands before seeing them live. I think that's the point we were making earlier with the LAST.FM data. With all the touring as some of those bands do, they should certainly be seeing their stats rise, since more and more people SHOULD be checking them out. As we said, time will tell.
Yeah, back in the day if there was an opening band or bands on a bill, you would have to go out and actually BUY their LP!!! *gasp*
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
Drudkh... has never played live, has never given an interview, has never posed for a band picture, sings in Ukranian:
2,362,194 plays (57,960 listeners)
I'm not correlating this to anyone or anything else, I just think that's pretty cool.*
*NOTE... while I'm not comparing it to anything else, let's be honest, they're way better than Blackguard. That much is a fact, that no amount of Neil data or Claus industry knowledge can undermine.
2,362,194 plays (57,960 listeners)
I'm not correlating this to anyone or anything else, I just think that's pretty cool.*
*NOTE... while I'm not comparing it to anything else, let's be honest, they're way better than Blackguard. That much is a fact, that no amount of Neil data or Claus industry knowledge can undermine.
Diabolik
Member
Drudkh... has never played live, has never given an interview, has never posed for a band picture, sings in Ukranian:
2,362,194 plays (57,960 listeners)
I'm not correlating this to anyone or anything else, I just think that's pretty cool.*
*NOTE... while I'm not comparing it to anything else, let's be honest, they're way better than Blackguard. That much is a fact, that no amount of Neil data or Claus industry knowledge can undermine.
it shows quality more than anything else. If you write good music...people will listen....you tour non stop playing generic metal...they will not.
nomisofsiman
Member
I was gonna ask but decided to check on my own. Last.fm has only been around since 2002. Sure, as Jason said, there was bound to be more for the older bands, but it should it be THAT big of a difference?
Overall though and I'm sorry Skyrefuge, now that I know what it is and some of the statistics I just don't find this a reliable source of info. Don't get me wrong, I think the technology is cool, but I bet there's tons and tons of people that either don't know that this exists or don't care to add a plug-in to their ipod, etc.
nomisofsiman
Member
I think the bottom line here is this is not a black and white scenario. Some bands that tour more may find more success than a band that puts more into recording and word of mouth; however, at the same time there probably is the opposite of that happening as well. I think it just depends on what the band is and how they implement their method. At the end of the day, there are so many different alternatives, it's pretty hard to say whether one is better than the other. In this internet age, there is just so much damn information, which is good, but at the same time because there is so much info, there is no ultimate source that can prove either side's point.
Claus / Intromental
20 years of uniting the powers of metal
Of course. I was just using that as a reference so that Jason easier could realize that his analysis of the data was wrong
Claus / Intromental
20 years of uniting the powers of metal
In terms of promotion: tt's difficult to say what's most important - the internet or the touring - I honestly have no idea. Both are important, and both aspects are something we try and emphasize on our bands.
I'm not sure what you mean by that ... but, touring is about getting out and performing your music to an audience, just like it always have been. The fact that it by today's standard is the biggest possibility for a band to make money (compared to CD sales) is another issue.
Did anyone ever?
c.
Prog_Please
Member
Agalloch -- been around since before Last.fm started -- 15,587 listeners/year
Blackguard -- first recorded material available in 2008 -- 4527 listeners/year
So by this reasoning, Agalloch has 3.44 times the number of Blackguard listeners/year.
Funny that you accuse someone else of "grasping for straws", but then don't include Agalloch in your list when Agalloch was the band mentioned from the start. Pure hypocrisy.
Also, in Slough Feg's defense, Mike Scalzi teaches a pretty mean philosophy class.
I don't see why they don't tour more during the summer. What else would a teacher do?
Claus / Intromental
20 years of uniting the powers of metal
Hahahahaha ... I seriously need to get that image out of my head that have been spinning around for a few days now of you and Jason as Beavis and Butthead - but come on Diabolik, even you should know better after all these pages of back and forth - You can't honestly believe what you just wrote here, can you? You can not use those data to show quality. What is quality? How do you "show" it? Jason realized it, so now I'm kindly asking him to sit down and explain it to you ...
Diabolik
Member
Jason wont come to my apartment in fear of getting shot in my neighborhood.
skyrefuge
Member
Ok, you aren't the one who initially made the claim, so I'll cut you some slack, but the claim was there were many bands who were *killed* by overexposure. None of these bands are even dead, regardless of the cause! (ok, Beyond the Embrace is probably dead, but metal-archives still lists them as active, so...)
Into Eternity: So the lack of clamor you hear for a new release is primarily because of their overexposure on the live circuit? Not because their last three albums at metal-archives have been rated 90%, 75%, and 56%, respectively? And not because you rarely hear clamor for *any* album? Old Man's Child never tours at all, so surely clamor for their next album must be huge. Where could I hear some of that?
Beyond the Embrace: They released their last album in 2004. How do you conclude that it was overexposure that kept them from releasing anything more? Did you see a letter from Metal Blade that said "sorry guys, we aren't going to renew your contract because you've played too many shows"?
Tyr: oh dear, where to start? By "toured a bunch of times", what do you mean? Once again I guess you're talking about your only tiny sphere of awareness, their tour dates in the Chicago area in the last two years? Ignoring the fact that they toured a ton in Europe before even coming to the US? They've been in Chicago four times, twice opening, and then twice headlining. How you construct that into a negative trendline is beyond me.
Average weekly listens to the top 5 Tyr songs in the first week of...
2008: 211
2009: 313
2010: 502
Yep, their touring is totally killing their popularity. If we were living in Backwards World!
And yes, I checked to see if the increase was just due to an increase in the population of last.fm users. Here's Einherjer, a band in the same genre that has been inactive over the same period:
2008: 126
2009: 185
2010: 130
Just curious, when you were in school, did you ever take a science class? Do you ever recall hearing the terms "causality", "the scientific method", or "testing a hypothesis"? Heck, failing that, have you ever read a Sherlock Holmes book or watched a TV crime drama? If you guys were TV detectives, you would decide who you thought the murderer was with a random guess, ignore any evidence or alternate possibilities, close the case, go home satisfied, and the show would be over in the first 5 minutes (and not because the real murderer was found!) Ha, now that I think of it, that would be a pretty funny show: "The Jasonic and Diabolik Five Minute Detective Hour".
Once again, that's not what this discussion is about. Of course the stresses of touring can break a band apart, or send them into unrecoverable debt. However, what you guys have been claiming is that the simple act of playing too many shows decreases your fanbase.
Neil
Diabolik
Member
I never come across anyone or any thread on any forum asking about Into Eternity and if they are putting out anything new soon. Or even if they plan on touring soon. Again, this was a band who everexposed themselves way to much in a short period of time basically killing off any interest in them.
Beyond the Embrace are pretty much dead. Last I heard they lost 1 or 2 guys and have done nothing since.
Tyr are a band I loved and still do but have no big desire to see them everytime to come to Chicago. Since I seen them 2 times out of the 4 they have played that is pretty good enough for me unless they play on a weekend or an amazing line up. The last time they played Chicago it was pretty empty from what I heard. If touring is always supposed to increase your fanbase why have they not grown with each show?
Funny that you want to take pot shots about education? Coming from a guy who bases all data off 1 web site and the final to end all choice in debates. And froma guy who is too gutless to even say "Hello" in person. Are you able to actually have a normal discussion in person and not hiding behind your computer?
Beyond the Embrace are pretty much dead. Last I heard they lost 1 or 2 guys and have done nothing since.
Tyr are a band I loved and still do but have no big desire to see them everytime to come to Chicago. Since I seen them 2 times out of the 4 they have played that is pretty good enough for me unless they play on a weekend or an amazing line up. The last time they played Chicago it was pretty empty from what I heard. If touring is always supposed to increase your fanbase why have they not grown with each show?
Funny that you want to take pot shots about education? Coming from a guy who bases all data off 1 web site and the final to end all choice in debates. And froma guy who is too gutless to even say "Hello" in person. Are you able to actually have a normal discussion in person and not hiding behind your computer?
skyrefuge
Member
Ha, ok. I guess it doesn't get any clearer than that! You don't think touring will increase a band's fanbase. And by extension, you think that every manger and label that encourages their bands to tour is wrong.
By "exactly", I mean, "exactly". There is no real-world example you can find, it's only a theoretical possibility. Another way of putting it is to say Band A has 10,000 fans, and has never toured. In 2011, they can either do three tours, or they can do none. Which is a better decision to make if they want more than 10,000 fans by 2012? You apparently think it's better for them *not* to tour, because any new fans that would be exposed to them (say, 100) will be outnumbered by the old fans who are turned off due to their "overexposure" (say 200), and the net result will be 9,900 fans in 2012.
ha, for the first time in the history of the Internet, you're suddenly shy? The point would be to show that you weren't just talking nonsense.
Knew them well, one of their guitarists was also in my girlfriend's band at the time. Despite the fact that they were playing "almost EVERY week", I saw them a grand total of...two times. Once opening for The Crown in '02, and once at the Milwaukee Metalfest in '03. Given that I went to plenty of metal shows at the time, I guess it was some sort of miracle that I missed them all those other weeks.
When you say something like this, do you seriously think "that's the same as 'overexposure killing the band'", or are you just hoping that I won't notice that it's something totally different? Not seeing a positive return from their live performances means that no one was latching on to them, and is a very reasonable reason to put a band to bed; it's an indicator that your band just isn't what people are looking for at the time. This may very well happen to Blackguard eventually, but that doesn't mean their death will be due to "overexposure", it will be due to "not being good enough".
If you think "overexposure" is killing your band, what person with more than two brain cells would think the solution to that problem is to end the band? Just play fewer shows! That's like saying "all this masturbation is making my dick hurt" and instead of cutting back on your jerk-off sessions, you solve the problem by chopping off your dick!
Neil
skyrefuge
Member
I already tried to connect the dots for you on this one, but I guess I have to do it again. Old Man's Child doesn't tour at all. I never come across any thread on any forum asking about Old Man's Child and if they are putting out anything new soon. Ahhh, paradox!!! How is this possible, unless there are other reasons for not hearing a clamor for a new release besides "overexposure"? And if other such reasons exist, perhaps those reasons can apply to Into Eternity as well?
Oh, maybe you forgot, I asked what information you had to link their death to overexposure. Do let me know.
Um, because no one ever made a solid-gold guarantee that attendance increases monotonically at each show you do. I've seen you many times come up with all sorts of explanations for concert turnout (location, price, amount of promotion, bands on the bill, time of year, etc.) but suddenly you forget all those other possibilities, and any lower turnout must be due to overexposure?
For "overexposure" to hurt a band, it means that they must get less money from you than they would if they toured less. Is that the case for you and Tyr? Now you won't buy their next album simply because they played a show that you didn't go to?
Ok, yes, funny, but *do* you remember ever learning about that stuff?
heh, why in the world would anyone need "guts" to have a conversation?
You may never know! But yes, probably best for you to think that the reason I have no interest in chatting is because I'm scared (especially with all of these veiled threats!)
Neil
dcowboys311
Member
Agalloch -- been around since before Last.fm started -- 15,587 listeners/year
Blackguard -- first recorded material available in 2008 -- 4527 listeners/year
So by this reasoning, Agalloch has 3.44 times the number of Blackguard listeners/year.
Funny that you accuse someone else of "grasping for straws", but then don't include Agalloch in your list when Agalloch was the band mentioned from the start. Pure hypocrisy.
Also, in Slough Feg's defense, Mike Scalzi teaches a pretty mean philosophy class.
"Now let's rank those bands with some other bands you've mentioned in this thread to try and prove your point..."
I forgot that the definition of "other" includes "already included." My mistake.
Also Scalzi teaches college level philosophy, right? Might be doing summer semester stuff.
skyrefuge
Member
I'm excited to see everyone tapping into the data! But I don't think this listeners/year thing is really the best way to compare the current status "old bands" and "new bands", since listeners don't really accumulate on a yearly basis.
One better way would be to scroll down to the "Top Tracks" section for each band, and see the number of tracks listened to in the last week (or last 6 months). Then you're comparing apples to apples, and current apples to current apples. Unfortunately they don't automatically total up the track counts for you, but you can do a good enough eyeball comparison by looking at the top 5 tracks or so. In this case, Agalloch is getting about ~2500 plays per track, while Blackguard is getting about ~100. So a 25x difference in that case, even greater than the 3.44x difference.
Of course Agalloch just released a new album, so is obviously getting a bump in listeners right now. If you click on "Charts" in the left hand menu, and then "browse by weekly snapshots", we can see how they were doing in January 2010, when neither had a new album out. Then it was ~1200 to ~140, so less than a 10x difference, but still greater than that 3.44x difference.
None of this is a surprise at all, nor does it provide any support for the hypothesis that touring too much decreases your fanbase. Agalloch is friggin' incredible band, and Blackguard sucks, so of course way more people listen to Agalloch!
Neil
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