What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)

[Jasonic]

Now let's rank those bands with some other bands you've mentioned in this thread to try and prove your point...

POWERGLOVE = 622,721 plays / 16,133 listeners
Manilla Road = 575,948 plays/12,617 listeners
MUTINY WITHIN = 294,088 plays / 9,668 listeners
BLACKGUARD = 158,782 plays / 9,053 listenters
Slough Feg = 221,426 plays/8,602 listeners
Atlantean Kodex = 26,122 plays/1,063 listeners

So what's your point?
That other underground bands I like seem to be holding their own quite nicely as opposed to the bands who play over 100 shows a year?
(OK - aside from Atlantean Kodex, but their first full length just came out last month. 22K plays then isn't terribly shabby)

 

[Claus / Intromental]

(OK - aside from Atlantean Kodex, but their first full length just came out last month. 22K plays then isn't terribly shabby)

Wait, stop the press, hold on .... WAIT!!!!!
Did you just make that correlation yourself? Did you just figure out that a band with only 1 album out, AND a young and new band, would not have as many plays as a band with many years behind them and multiple albums? Wow, did you really come to that conclusion all by yourself?

But but but ..., that means that what you said a couple of posts above was wrong ... can you live with that?

 

[Jasonic]

The two of you are the funniest creatures I've seen on this forum ever

Thanks!!!

I get the point you are attempting to make.
Still though, my point isn't about "my bands better than your bands"
You can put in bands of any genre into this example for all I care.

The point was that per your claim, touring like hell will generate results.
Sure, it is baby steps.
And I won't completely disagree that the longevity of a band plays some part.

Though consider the amount of promotion through advertising and touring that a band like Blackguard has compared to Agalloch, and the number of people they play in front of each year, as opposed to Agalloch (or another band who doesn't tour regularly).

Yeah, you are from Denmark, and have seen Saturnus that many times (you lucky bastard!!!!!!) Still though, they do not tour as regulalry as the others mentioned here.

Look, no matter what discussion we have on any topic, some band or group of bands will be at the center. It's just an example.

I never said, "My band is better than yours" What I am implying is that bands in Column B get respectable listening results on LAST.FM based on feedback by others of their music. It isn't from tour hopping, etc.

So, if Blackguard and others are THAT great, and have THAT much of a buzz, with ALL the touring they do, and promotion, I would think they should have more than just 158K listens. As Diabolik said, you would think they should have more than that just from people checking them out in seeing their name advertised on Blabbermouth for some upcoming tour.

I know it's baby steps, and if these bands have the chops, the results will come.

 

[Jasonic]

Come on people!! This thread certainly has to elicit more replies than "There should be a Prog Power Texas"

 

[skyrefuge]

Well, since Neil himself said that LAST.FM statistics are credible, here is some data for you to chew on:

Woo hoo, I'm so happy to see you using data not pulled from your ass! (and I hope you take dcowboys' additions to heart too).

Trouble is, this data doesn't have anything to do with your original argument. You have been saying that extensive touring *hurts* bands, and that if they did less touring, they would have a larger fanbase.

Yes, touring is only one component to a band's chances for success, and their actual music can be a more important component. I don't think anyone has said that even the shittiest band will automatically be successful if they simply tour a lot. It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd, you'll never turn it into a golden egg. But we're saying that you *can* make it at least a nicely-rounded turd.

The question is, given two equally shitty bands, who will have the larger fanbase, the one that tours more, or the one that tours less? You have been arguing that it's the one who tours less. Effectively saying that if Agalloch toured more, they would have fewer fans than they do now. Is this what you actually believe, or have 300+ posts changed your mind finally?

Unfortunately it's difficult to find data to prove/disprove this argument, since it's impossible to define two "equally shitty (or great)" bands and compare them.

Anyhow, I'm still waiting for that list of bands whose careers ended because they turned off their fans from touring too much.

Neil

 

[dcowboys311]

So what's your point?
That other underground bands I like seem to be holding their own quite nicely as opposed to the bands who play over 100 shows a year?
(OK - aside from Atlantean Kodex, but their first full length just came out last month. 22K plays then isn't terribly shabby)

I just find it odd how you've been harping on about Manilla Road, Atlantean Kodex, and Slough Feg being bands that prove your point, but then when you try and pull some stats, you use Saturnus and Novembers Doom, two bands you haven't mentioned at all in this monstrosity of a thread, to try and prove that you're right.

Just seems to me like you're grasping for straws here.

Last.fm has been around since 2002. Assuming an equal distribution in number of listeners gained per year (this is not true and flawed), the numbers look like this:


Blackguard -- first recorded material available in 2008 -- 4527 listeners/year
Mutiny Within -- first recorded material available in 2006 -- 4217 listeners/year
Powerglove -- first recorded material available in 2005 -- 3227 listeners/year
Slough Feg -- been around since before Last.fm started -- 1075 listeners/year
Manilla Road -- been around since before Last.fm started -- 1577 listeners/year
Atlantean Kodex -- first recorded material available in 2007 -- 354 listeners/year

Shocking, but look who's at the top of the list?

"Tour all the hell you want. Quality will always prevail."

 

[Jasonic]

Wait, stop the press, hold on .... WAIT!!!!!
Did you just make that correlation yourself? Did you just figure out that a band with only 1 album out, AND a young and new band, would not have as many plays as a band with many years behind them and multiple albums? Wow, did you really come to that conclusion all by yourself?

But but but ..., that means that what you said a couple of posts above was wrong ... can you live with that?

Are YOU freakin kidding me Claus??????

Yes, but Atlantean Kodex has NOT been on 5 big US tours this year, nor do they have the promotional push of Nuclear Blast behind them. News of what they do will most likely NOT be published on Blabbermouth.

MAJOR difference. As we all said, there are many other factors.

I addressed the difference in the bands' longevity above.

 

[dcowboys311]

Also, in regards to Atlantean Kodex...The Pnakotic Demos generated a good bit of buzz in the underground. Those 22k listens are NOT a result of The Golden Bough itself.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

What I am implying is that bands in Column B get respectable listening results on LAST.FM based on feedback by others of their music. It isn't from tour hopping, etc. So, if Blackguard and others are THAT great, and have THAT much of a buzz, with ALL the touring they do, and promotion, I would think they should have more than just 158K listens. As Diabolik said, you would think they should have more than that just from people checking them out in seeing their name advertised on Blabbermouth for some upcoming tour.

But this is impossible to prove with data like those from LastFM.
So many things are unaccounted for:
- years the band has been around
- number of songs available
- age of listeners on LastFM
- geographic placement of band A vs band B

You can't come here and tell me that "band A is getting more plays on Last FM than band B, thus band A is of higher quality" - that's ridiculous and you know that. That's making a blanket statement based on your intepretation of some data.

Just like there's no way Neil can come here and say "band C is getting more plays on Last FM than band D, and that's because they tour more than band D".

 

[Jasonic]

Claus, ok, this last post of yours I can honestly say I am mostly in agreement with. I only even went to LAST.FM, since Neil has a hard on for data which usually doesn't mean jack shit to most.

dcowboys311 - I wasn't grasping at anything specific. Three regularly touring bands came to mind in BG, MW, and PG. Agalloch has been discussed most, so I went with ND and Saturnus, as those are obvious peer bands. As I said, we could play this game all day long. Still though, it showcases that touring is not the be all end all method for success for a band.

Honestly, I really don't know what more can be said.
For Blackguard's sake, I certainly hope all their touring pays off. I truly do. As a lifelong fan of music in general of MANY genres, I respect the hell out of any band who gives up a lot of their personal life for the road.

 

[Jasonic]

Just like there's no way Neil can come here and say "band C is getting more plays on Last FM than band D, and that's because they tour more than band D".

Thank you.

 

[dcowboys311]

Honestly, I really don't know what more can be said.

Official download debate thread?

 

[Jasonic]

Also, in regards to Atlantean Kodex...The Pnakotic Demos generated a good bit of buzz in the underground. Those 22k listens are NOT a result of The Golden Bough itself.

That's true. I am not a LAST.FM user, so I don't know what material of theirs is out there, nor do I care to really look.

 

[Diabolik]

Official download debate thread?

I wonder how many legal downloads Blackguard gets?


anyone? anyone? anyone?


also Jason...Blackguard are now on Victory Records not Nuclear Blast. Now they can tour with straight edge hardcore bands.

 

[dcowboys311]

also Jason...Blackguard are now on Victory Records not Nuclear Blast. Now they can tour with straight edge hardcore bands.

Hahah, Victory only has ONE straight edge hardcore band these days and under five hardcore bands in general.

Quite the shift...

 

[skyrefuge]

But this is impossible to prove with data like those from LastFM.

Huh? It's impossible to prove with *any* set of listener data! Were you really expecting to see that bands who tour the most have the most listeners? I hope not! The quality and completeness of last.fm data has nothing to do with this argument...even with the world's most complete dataset, you wouldn't see any correlation between popularity and touring, because there are way too many factors that affect popularity besides touring.

In this thread we have been trying to look at the effects of touring *in isolation*. If we remove all other factors that affect a band's popularity, how does touring alone affect their popularity. Is there a point where touring too much causes their popularity to decrease?

Just like there's no way Neil can come here and say "band C is getting more plays on Last FM than band D, and that's because they tour more than band D".

Exactly. And I hope you realize that I would never say anything like that!

Neil

 

[Diabolik]

Hahah, Victory only has ONE straight edge hardcore band these days and under five hardcore bands in general.

Quite the shift...

back in the day the next to Revelation Records were "the" hardcore label to be on.

 

[skyrefuge]

Still though, it showcases that touring is not the be all end all method for success for a band.

Of course not. You say that as if you're winning some argument, but when has anyone in this thread ever said that touring is the be all end all method for success?

To remind you, the claim I've been making is "given two bands that are exactly the same in every other way, the one who tours more will have more fans". Do you agree or disagree with that?

Honestly, I really don't know what more can be said.

Well, there's that group of bands you could easily list...

Alternatively, if you want me to stop pestering, you could say "ok, I was wrong about that, I can't actually identify any bands that were killed by overexposure, and I was wrong when I said that touring too much hurts a band's fanbase".

Neil

 

[Diabolik]

Well, there's that group of bands you could easily list...

Alternatively, if you want me to stop pestering, you could say "ok, I was wrong about that, I can't actually identify any bands that were killed by overexposure, and I was wrong when I said that touring too much hurts a band's fanbase".

Neil

Into Eternity (you dont see anyone clamouring for a new disc)
Beyond the Embrace
Tyr - they toured a bunch of times now to lesser and lesser crowds each time. This goes with the " I will catch them next time" theory.


there are lots of punk bands that pretty much broke up because of constant touring. It is a hard lifestyle to do. If you do tour to much people will pass on shows because they know you will come back sooner or later.

 

[Jasonic]

To remind you, the claim I've been making is "given two bands that are exactly the same in every other way, the one who tours more will have more fans". Do you agree or disagree with that?

No. 100% disagree.
I suppose we would have to agree with what "exactly the same in every other way"

There are bands on larger labels (IE - The End, Nuc Blast, Century Media, etc) who don't tour as regularly as some who I would say have more fans. Though once again, I suppose two people would have to agree on what "exactly the same" means. That could be a whole other discussion, and an interesting one at that.

As far as coming up with 5 bands who were killed by overexposure, honestly, at this stage, what's the point? I could list 5 bands, but you would just list the one of a zillion possible other reasons for a band's demise.

One band that I do know broke up due to overexposure, based on their own admission, is ENFORSAKEN from Chicago. You may have heard of them as they had one full length on Century Media / Olympic. They were hailed to be the US In Flames for a while. Not a bad band, but they seriously played almost EVERY week. To be honest, I can't recall if they toured a lot.

Anyhoo - when they broke up, their singer said a main reason was that they didn't see the payback for all the shows they did. The label dropped them, and then they recorded another album for a smaller label, and then that was it. They always made comments like, "The fans are sick of seeing us on every bill, etc" This was, in the early 2000s, the perfect example of "that band" or, "Oh, no need to go to this show, since they are on 2 more coming up"