What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)

[skyrefuge]

Drudkh...

Funny thing is, they might be the *one* band where I would concede that if they were to tour more their fanbase could be decreased. Because their mystique surely adds at least some slight amount to their current fanbase. It would have to be a very specific number of shows though. If they just did one or two, I think the mystique would still be there, maybe even stronger, and the publicity+exclusivity would gain them some new fans. If they did a bunch of tours, the new fans they picked up would quickly outnumber those that dropped them because of their newfound lack-of-tr00. But if they did just one round through Europe, particularly if it was with Dimmu Borgir, then yeah, they might lose more fans than they would gain.

Neil

 

[Prog_Please]

"Now let's rank those bands with some other bands you've mentioned in this thread to try and prove your point..."

I forgot that the definition of "other" includes "already included." My mistake.

Also Scalzi teaches college level philosophy, right? Might be doing summer semester stuff.

1. My point is you criticized someone for strategically picking bands to make a point, when in my opinion, not using Agalloch in your list of bands is doing the same. You brought the listeners/yrs statistic to the table first, so how could that "already" be included (even if people don't think its that relevant of a statistic)? Regardless, its weird your list (no matter how you came up with it) didn't include the 1 band that contradicts the points you're trying to make (coincidence?).

2. Yeah, he teaches at DVC, a local community college. While it does offer some summer courses, the courses offered are fewer and generally geared toward high school replacement credit (for example: our high school let you go to DVC to take German or Sign Language (is that even capitalized?) as the foreign language credit since the high school itself only offered Spanish and French). In any case, most professors take a quarter off sometime, even if its not the Summer quarter (from my experience at least).

 

[skyrefuge]

And finally, how about a summary?

I think a band's chances of success can be broken down into three components: talent, hard work, and luck.

Let's say that it's 25% talent, 25% hard work, and 50% luck.

There's really nothing you can do to change your talent or your luck, so right off the bat, most of your chance at success is already out of your hands. But, 25% of it is still in your control, if you want to work hard.

So, for bands who are not blessed with natural talent and who haven't fallen into good luck, but still want to make a go of it and control their own destiny as much as they can, hard work is the only avenue left. You see this in sports all the time...the running back who succeeded not because he was fast, or big, but because he wanted it the most and worked the hardest to achieve it.

For those with plenty of luck and talent, they don't even need to tap the hard work component, they can achieve success without it.

One thing you always hear about Michael Jordan was that he was unsurpassable because he was both the most talented *and* the hardest worker.

So, when God rolled the d8s and d10s and d20s, Agalloch got a full 25 points in the talent component and 40 in the luck component. Blackguard got 1 in the talent component and 25 in the luck component. Even if Blackguard works as hard as they possibly can and tours their ass off (for a full 25), and Agalloch doesn't do a damn thing (for 0 pts.), the totals still come to 65 for Agalloch and 51 for Blackguard. Agalloch wins, and Blackguard never has a chance.

However, Swashbuckle also has 1 in the talent component and 25 in the luck component. If they only put in enough hard work to score a 15, that gives them 41, which means that a hard-working Blackguard can beat Swashbuckle. Maybe that keeps Blackguard in the game long enough for their luck to change.

You might say that some of the hard work should go into creating better music rather than touring, but hard work can only improve your music a very small amount. Most of it is dependent on your talent score, and thus, out of your control.

So again, touring can't make *all* the difference for a band and is certainly no guarantee of success. But it *can* make a difference, and since it's the one component of success that a band has control over, that's why you see them pushing it. For a band that maxes out their hard work, and still fails to achieve success, it doesn't mean that maxing out their hard work was a bad idea. It just means that they didn't have enough luck or talent to make it. If they hadn't worked hard, their chances would have been even lower.

Neil

 

[nomisofsiman]

And finally, how about a summary?

I think a band's chances of success can be broken down into three components: talent, hard work, and luck.

Let's say that it's 25% talent, 25% hard work, and 50% luck.

There's really nothing you can do to change your talent or your luck, so right off the bat, most of your chance at success is already out of your hands. But, 25% of it is still in your control, if you want to work hard.

So, for bands who are not blessed with natural talent and who haven't fallen into good luck, but still want to make a go of it and control their own destiny as much as they can, hard work is the only avenue left. You see this in sports all the time...the running back who succeeded not because he was fast, or big, but because he wanted it the most and worked the hardest to achieve it.

For those with plenty of luck and talent, they don't even need to tap the hard work component, they can achieve success without it.

One thing you always hear about Michael Jordan was that he was unsurpassable because he was both the most talented *and* the hardest worker.

So, when God rolled the d8s and d10s and d20s, Agalloch got a full 25 points in the talent component and 40 in the luck component. Blackguard got 1 in the talent component and 25 in the luck component. Even if Blackguard works as hard as they possibly can and tours their ass off (for a full 25), and Agalloch doesn't do a damn thing (for 0 pts.), the totals still come to 65 for Agalloch and 51 for Blackguard. Agalloch wins, and Blackguard never has a chance.

However, Swashbuckle also has 1 in the talent component and 25 in the luck component. If they only put in enough hard work to score a 15, that gives them 41, which means that a hard-working Blackguard can beat Swashbuckle. Maybe that keeps Blackguard in the game long enough for their luck to change.

You might say that some of the hard work should go into creating better music rather than touring, but hard work can only improve your music a very small amount. Most of it is dependent on your talent score, and thus, out of your control.

So again, touring can't make *all* the difference for a band and is certainly no guarantee of success. But it *can* make a difference, and since it's the one component of success that a band has control over, that's why you see them pushing it. For a band that maxes out their hard work, and still fails to achieve success, it doesn't mean that maxing out their hard work was a bad idea. It just means that they didn't have enough luck or talent to make it. If they hadn't worked hard, their chances would have been even lower.

Neil

I take it you're putting marketing in the luck department? Because that is the one element I would definitely add. Other than that, give or take, those numbers seem about accurate.

 

[General Zod]

Funny thing is, they might be the *one* band where I would concede that if they were to tour more their fanbase could be decreased. Because their mystique surely adds at least some slight amount to their current fanbase. It would have to be a very specific number of shows though. If they just did one or two, I think the mystique would still be there, maybe even stronger, and the publicity+exclusivity would gain them some new fans. If they did a bunch of tours, the new fans they picked up would quickly outnumber those that dropped them because of their newfound lack-of-tr00. But if they did just one round through Europe, particularly if it was with Dimmu Borgir, then yeah, they might lose more fans than they would gain.

I suspect there's a lot of truth to this. I for one don't want to know what they look like, don't want the lyrics, don't want interviews. I like the mystery that surrounds them. It most definitely adds something alluring to the music, which is obviously, and first and foremost, very special.

 

[Diabolik]

I suspect there's a lot of truth to this. I for one don't want to know what they look like, don't want the lyrics, don't want interviews. I like the mystery that surrounds them. It most definitely adds something alluring to the music, which is obviously, and first and foremost, very special.

I agree....sometimes a mystery is best left alone. Knowing too much can also ruin an opinion of a band. This is why also I dont like meeting lots of bands because it can sour my taste. Sometimes even knowing to much about them can too. Lots of the folk metal stuff that has nationialist beliefs sour my taste of them. Sometimes letting the music speak for itself is the best way to go.

 

[dcowboys311]

1. My point is you criticized someone for strategically picking bands to make a point, when in my opinion, not using Agalloch in your list of bands is doing the same. You brought the listeners/yrs statistic to the table first, so how could that "already" be included (even if people don't think its that relevant of a statistic)? Regardless, its weird your list (no matter how you came up with it) didn't include the 1 band that contradicts the points you're trying to make (coincidence?).

2. Yeah, he teaches at DVC, a local community college. While it does offer some summer courses, the courses offered are fewer and generally geared toward high school replacement credit (for example: our high school let you go to DVC to take German or Sign Language (is that even capitalized?) as the foreign language credit since the high school itself only offered Spanish and French). In any case, most professors take a quarter off sometime, even if its not the Summer quarter (from my experience at least).

To each his own. Actually all 3 of the bands in the Agalloch list (Agalloch, Novembers Doom, and Saturnus) had higher stats than the 'touring bands.' I thought I had made it obvious that I was comparing the 'touring bands' to a new set of bands, but I guess I could have made it clearer. Additionally, there are going to be outliers in any situation. I assume that most people here would consider Agalloch an outlier and there isn't really any point constantly referring to them as a benchmark.

Having Scalzi as a professor must be awesome. I'd nerd out the whole time.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Don Anderson from Agalloch is also a teacher.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Don Anderson from Agalloch is also a teacher.

A lot of musicians are teachers. Two of the guys in Darkane are teachers -- Peter Wildoer (at least I think he still is, since he has been getting more music gigs the last year or so) and Klas Ideberg. I wouldn't be surprised if a huge percentage of these musicians where the band itself is not their sole job are teachers.

 

[Prog_Please]

A lot of musicians are teachers. Two of the guys in Darkane are teachers -- Peter Wildoer (at least I think he still is, since he has been getting more music gigs the last year or so) and Klas Ideberg. I wouldn't be surprised if a huge percentage of these musicians where the band itself is not their sole job are teachers.

As the expression goes, "Those who can [make a living off music], do. Those who can't, teach."

Not exactly the expression, but kinda humorous nonetheless. However, I'd love to take a class with the dude from Agalloch!

 

[Diabolik]

As the expression goes, "Those who can [make a living off music], do. Those who can't, teach."

Not exactly the expression, but kinda humorous nonetheless. However, I'd love to take a class with the dude from Agalloch!

I dont know.....they write 10 minutes songs....imagine how long the average lecture would be.

 

[AngraRULES]

And now, here's another thread Reminder, brought to you by your friendly neighbor AngraRULES:

Agalloch is awesome.

 

[Diabolik]

And now, here's another thread Reminder, brought to you by your friendly neighbor AngraRULES:

Agalloch is awesome.

dont forget Atlantean Kodex and Slough Feg!

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Ummmm.....I'm flattered, but I'm not really into "exchanging data" with dudes...

Neil

I'm the exception though right bro? I've got Gamecube and best of Dave Matthews.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Are YOU freakin kidding me Claus??????

Yes, but Atlantean Kodex has NOT been on 5 big US tours this year, nor do they have the promotional push of Nuclear Blast behind them. News of what they do will most likely NOT be published on Blabbermouth.

MAJOR difference. As we all said, there are many other factors.

I addressed the difference in the bands' longevity above.

FYI Blackguard was never on NB for the US. Sumerian for the debut and now they're on Victory worldwide. Again, should probably be good to know your stuff. But then again, you and Diabolik seem to hate facts.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I never come across anyone or any thread on any forum asking about Into Eternity and if they are putting out anything new soon. Or even if they plan on touring soon. Again, this was a band who everexposed themselves way to much in a short period of time basically killing off any interest in them.

Beyond the Embrace are pretty much dead. Last I heard they lost 1 or 2 guys and have done nothing since.

Tyr are a band I loved and still do but have no big desire to see them everytime to come to Chicago. Since I seen them 2 times out of the 4 they have played that is pretty good enough for me unless they play on a weekend or an amazing line up. The last time they played Chicago it was pretty empty from what I heard. If touring is always supposed to increase your fanbase why have they not grown with each show?

Funny that you want to take pot shots about education? Coming from a guy who bases all data off 1 web site and the final to end all choice in debates. And froma guy who is too gutless to even say "Hello" in person. Are you able to actually have a normal discussion in person and not hiding behind your computer?

Nobody gives a shit about what *you* see on forums. Have you not figured this out yet? That's not a personal attack, it's me telling you, that your personal experiences are not sufficient data. Conversely, pulling data from Last.fm while not REALLY accurate to our discussion, means far much more than you and your blind rants that you pull out of your invididual subjective experience. Not only have we been proving you wrong time and again, whilst you keep coming back to your same old chestnut ("QUALITY RULEZ HAIL N KILL BROTHER), but we have told you that using your personal experiences with no actual FACTS to back them up is not going to cut it at all, but you still do it. Is it really a wonder that he takes "pot shots" about education since you haven't figured this out yet?

Also, why would you care so much about wanting to hang out with someone you don't know on the internet? How does it makes him gutless just because he doesn't like you enough to want to meet you? How about you drop the ego please. You're not the center of the universe.

3 Inches of Blood has a METALcore screamer. It is very different than hardcore..metal core is nothing like it in any sort of way....hardcore has raw power and emotion....metalcore is emo hardcore kids suddenly turning metal with thier whinny screams still in the music. Like that guy who was in 3 Inches of Blood.

Forgot to mention this. So 3 Inches Of Blood is emo? Why do I even listen to you? I'm just going to put you on my ignore-list to save myself from getting banned.

 

[AngraRULES]

Yes, but Atlantean Kodex has NOT been on 5 big US tours this year, nor do they have the promotional push of Nuclear Blast behind them. News of what they do will most likely NOT be published on Blabbermouth.

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=135912

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=145896

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=146091

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Yeah I don't see what being on NB has to do with Bori posting news about the band either. He posts tons of news about bands on indie labels.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Agalloch -- been around since before Last.fm started -- 15,587 listeners/year
Blackguard -- first recorded material available in 2008 -- 4527 listeners/year

So by this reasoning, Agalloch has 3.44 times the number of Blackguard listeners/year.

Funny that you accuse someone else of "grasping for straws", but then don't include Agalloch in your list when Agalloch was the band mentioned from the start. Pure hypocrisy.

Well not really, because that ratio would only work if both bands were around for the same amount of time. Blackguard has an EP and a full length, Agalloch has 5 full lengths, splits, EPs, etc and have been around for a decade. Bands accumulate fans (or at least, that's the goal) over time, and the rate of fans should grow exponentially higher over time. So in other words, Agalloch has 3.44 times the number of Blackguard fans NOW, but in 10 years and Blackguard has done the same kind of backbreaking touring they're doing now the rate of the fans they collect per year would be much higher than Agalloch's. Comprende?

 

[Pellaz]

While it does offer some summer courses, the courses offered are fewer and generally geared toward high school replacement credit (for example: our high school let you go to DVC to take German or Sign Language (is that even capitalized?)

Well, "sign language" would not be capitalized, but American Sign Language (a specific language) WOULD be capitalized.

I'm skipping lightly over the rest of this epic thread.