What is art!? (Cythraul paper included)

Cythraul

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Dec 10, 2003
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One of the central problems that has occupied aestheticians and philosophers for ages is the question "What is art?" Certain thinkers have attempted to give definitions of art which enumerate the necessary and sufficient conditions for something to be art. Others have taken a very different line and have argued that there can be no definition of art which gives necessary and sufficient conditions for something to be art. Wietz (I forgot his first name) takes a pretty extreme view and claims that all (or almost all?) concepts which fall outside of the domains of logic and mathematics are open concepts. If a concept is an open concept that means there are no necessary and sufficient conditions for its application. That is, whatever things the concept applies to is not set in stone. If all concepts besides logical and mathematical concepts are open concepts then it follows that the concept of art is open. If the concept of art is open then that means there can't really be a final, decisive answer as to what art is (I think). Arthur Danto has proposed what I think is a very peculiar account of what art is. Danto proposes that what counts as art is determined by a given theory of art and the Artworld in place at a given time. The Artworld is presumably the network of museums, opera houses, galleries, art publications, etc. etc. Danto proposes this thesis in order to account for the fact that certain objects shift in status from ordinary to art objects, e.g. pop art. Danto's thesis is odd because it seems to allow for the possibility that literally anything could be art and yet it seems to purport to give necessary and sufficient conditions for something to be art. I find the thesis perplexing (I don't know if anyone else does). I deal with this thesis in a critical (and very short) paper which I have linked to below.
 
Ah, good of you to post this Cythraul. I'll read it tomorrow morning, and go back over some papers on "art" and respond sometime thereafter. This is a very important topic to me, and Im sure well have some good discussions here.

Also, I have to beat Nile577 to the punch, before he comes in and steals my thunder... so there may be some overlap on "disclosure" :)
 
you people here should discuss what you think it is for something to be art!

I've never really thought about it myself bar a couple paragraphs I noted the other week, the bottom line idea being "the fixity of a creation is not art, the art of the object is in he who engages with it in experience."

I'll check out your essay tommorrow
 
I thought the initial, massive gaping contradiction of the hypothesis was elegantly pointed out. Once you collapse the supposed 'hypothesis' to 'someone/something else determines what art is' then further examination of it (in relation to 'what is art?') seems a little irrelevant to me :)

My attempt :)
A conscious, contrived production, designed primarily to stimulate emotion in the mind/s of a witting audience.
 
Others have taken a very different line and have argued that there can be no definition of art which gives necessary and sufficient conditions for something to be art.

That's where I've always stood and having been through a course on Aesthetics many years ago, I'm much more confident in my position.
 
Are Aesthetic Properties Objective?

Response-Dependant Properties

“Aesthetic properties are response-dependant. But is this sufficient grounds for denying that they are real, objective properties?” (Carroll, 192).

As the section begins, we are likely to agree with Carroll that Aesthetic properties are in fact response-dependant, as all observable properties are. By this it is safe to say that as the observers disposition changes, so must the experience obtained as a result of a given property, at least to some degree. Having said that, we cannot honestly conclude that similarities or “uniformity” between two observer’s experiences are either a result of that property being objective (as the author concludes), or a subjective property triggering a consistent response in a culturally influenced society. Outside of the hypothetical world, one can’t escape the influence of culture or environment, let alone account for all the variables necessary in determining if we have captured the “essence” of that property.

At the very heart of this, we can’t honestly conclude that:

All information or experience observed from an object is only that which is being transmitted by the object. There may very well be “more than meets the eye”, that may serve to greatly alter the experience of two very similar people, thus a seemingly subjective property may in fact be an objective property, or vice versa. It would as a result be difficult to be sure if one’s sense is in fact tracking real phenomena wrt a specific property or not.

All information or experience observed from the object is only being transmitted from the object. We don’t live in a vacuum, and cannot be sure that other outside, or partially related sources are not in fact disrupting the experience, aside from the property we are observing. In this case, we again claim something is objective when subjective or vice versa. An example might be that of a specific color, whereby this color in question differs due to certain surrounding colours (an illusion created by the mind).


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Found some of my papers from years ago so, depending on where this goes I can post a few online or something.
 
At the very heart of this, we can’t honestly conclude that:

All information or experience observed from an object is only that which is being transmitted by the object.

word.

IMO, it's not about transmission from the object, it seems more likely there is something in our ontology as humans with the sense organs as they are which accounts for intersubjectivity of aesthetics, and the differences in human experience and memory which accounts for taste and mood and things wound up in what we're then pleased to consider ''art'' without which we may merely find something nice or not disgusting, but not art or artistic.
 
Just to let you know, I havent forgotten about this thread, and I am still very interested in posting some. Unfortunately, Ive been busy, and when I have been posting, its been in the non-opeth music chat forum (got into a little debate over there ;))

I will get something posted here soon.
 
I posted the following in another forum concerned with art and music, but also had this thread in mind while writing it.

Previously, I spoke of the "ontological significance" of music, as a form of art. Below, I will attempt to explain this in greater detail (drawing heavily on Heidegger's writings) while avoiding excessive and cumbersome terminology that may be unfamiliar (however some precision and clarification is necessary [I will introduce a few terms]).

I raised the issue of "ontological significance" to contrast it with the common understanding and appraisal of music and art in general, which concerns only the "thingly" aspect of works of art and views them as sensory objects (which are thought via "aesthetics"). One of Heidegger's examples from Being and Time displays this opposition. A merely descriptive ("ontic") account of a hammer speaks of its weight, size, form/shape, material, quality of manufacture- its metal head, wooden handle, etc. An ontological understanding reveals the hammer as a tool which hammers, as equipment for building, as a creation of man that aids him in constructing his dwellings.

The ontic, or merely descriptive account, is not "incorrect" if acknowledged as an aspect of something's being- the hammer certainly is of metal, wood, etc.- but arbitrarily bounded and woefully mistaken if proclaimed as the whole of its being (the hammer is not only pieces of metal, or wood). That it is not limited to its descriptive components is revealed by its name- it is called "hammer" (not "metal and wood") because it is for hammering, its thingly qualities serve in an equipmental fashion that is significant to man. This significance cannot be grasped by an ontic (descriptive) account, but only through an ontological understanding.

How does this apply to music as art?

The evaluation of art via aesthetics is an ontic approach. In visual art, we speak of elements. In music, pitch, rhythm, timbre, texture, dynamics, composition, etc. serve this same purpose. All these descriptions are of the thingly aspects of visual or sonorous "objects"- they classify, categorize, and evaluate the sensory aspects of art, they dispose. In contrast, the ontological understanding discloses the significance of the art as an art-work, which is not merely a collection of pigments, lines, or sonic disturbances. Nor does a cheap appeal to its "emotive" qualities break out of the ontic- this can be just as calculated and descriptive as the purely formal physical descriptions (however, evocation of honest and fundamental moods is certainly a part of art [wonder, daring, anxiety, affection, etc.]. I am distinguishing this from the cynically calculated manipulation of popular "emotional" responses).

Unfortunately, our direct parallel with the hammer fails us at this point- the ontological significance of the hammer is equipment- surely a work of art cannot be viewed in such crude terms, even if art-objects are commonly used as such (even to the point of art being erroneously conflated with equipmental "use"). "What is art?" This is certainly a complex "riddle" and one that I cannot presume to "answer" here. However, the example of the hammer points us in its direction, so that we may come closer to an understanding of art.

The ontological significance of the hammer is revealed when we pick it up and use it for hammering, when we are engaged with it as equipment. Similarly, we will come much closer to art if we comport ourselves not merely to ontic aspects of the medium of art, but the work of the artwork itself.

Art is not a mere thing, a conglomeration of sensory experience. These elements compose the thingly aspects that allow us to experience the art (they are the vehicle for art) but they are not art itself. Similarly, the metal and wood of a hammer allow us to grasp it, provide the rigidity and leverage necessary for its task, but are not "hammer" or equipment individually, or as a union of "metal + wood".

Art is not merely equipment (either of the physical or psychological). If it were, "art" as a concept and term would be superfluous, as it would hold no higher status than any other tool, be of no more significance than our lowly hammer- certainly this is not the case and this view seems unpalatable however cynical we may be. Art may be abused as equipment by "culture", the advertising and "art" industries, or connoisseurship (the elevation of aesthetics to a science) but it historically serves a different purpose, despite all attempts to render it as equipment. It is by its nature un-economical and "useless" (equipmentaly), and serves unexplainable (or "irrational") spiritual, religious, communicative, symbolic, conceptual, or emotional forces. When we comport ourselves to artwork in an equipmental fashion, its meaning flees us- we are left with a repulsive and yet numb feeling.

It is inappropriate to look for significance of art in a thingly (ontic) or equipmental (incorrect ontological reference) orientation. If I cannot say decisively what the "correct" orientation is (if there is even such a "thing"), I can at least point to it: the art-work discloses a world. World is not thought here as something limited terrestrially, a collection of things (beings) that are, nor some high flown fantasy. The artwork must open up a space for more primordial thoughts and moods, to preserve strife (which does not mean a mere quarreling). Here I am straying into very difficult territory, and am drawing too directly from Heidegger's The Origin of the Work of Art (which has heavily influenced this entire writing of mine, but I have deviated from it significantly until now). I will leave this difficult ground to more accomplished thinkers, lest I merely mimic their words (however unsatisfactory it may be to you all, I cannot furnish a robust account of art or our relation to it- this is not due to a lack of thoughtfulness, but the difficulty in communicating such things, and my limitations with language. I have pointed in its direction, and I trust this is enough for now).

Too often, an ontological understanding of art is used to dismiss aesthetics and the ontic approach in general. I think this is too strong of a reaction, and a misunderstanding of how we have access to art. The vehicle, the aesthetic, is indeed necessary for the communication and disclosing of the art- it tempers it, gives it its character, and mirrors the art's disposition. One would not choose Gorguts thinking it discloses a world in the same manner as Bach's organ works. Clearly, aesthetics is very important. However, our understanding must not be bound or limited to it, and this is the purpose of introducing discussion of "ontological significance"- not to negate the role of aesthetics, but to insist that it alone cannot be called art, as this misunderstanding abandons art.
 
Cythraul, I feel slightly bad for not having been able to read your paper. I fear there is a limit on Megaupload for European countries. Perhaps you might upload it to yousend it? Same goes for Justin's paper in another thread (the yousendit link expired before I got a chance to download it, alas).

I would really like to read both papers.
 
Apparently this is currently "art":


homicide said:
yeah, this is just my intro
it's sirius man, this is sirius radio right here
grr g unit radio shady
some of you might losin somethin, somethin

You screamin ya gun jammed, nigga ya gun aint jammed
they let off ya bitch ass ran, you screamin ya gun jammed
i know your type fam, you pussy i understand
you screamin ya gun jammed, you run when da shots fired
you scared the fuck and dive for that hollow tip diet
intense care unit after niggas get sprayed up
jamaica high school, 3rd floor, and get laid up
50 cervisers make sure ya bills get paid up
so its 9-1-1 when you see my gun
im popular nigga the police know me
its cuz of this rap shit im rich now homie
man, when you not around I got ya bitch all on me
she wanna be my wife now she like my lifestyle
a shot airpump is as sweet as tabu
i play sumtin smooth when i stunt in my coupe
oo youuu, know these niggas aint like me
everything i say i got and these raps i cop B
da cars, cribs jewels, the tools
the 9s, the tehs, tha mac's ooh
da burners da gats, man if you confused
i send a nigga from my hood to put a hole in you
i rock g unit hats, hoodies and shoes
i got G-Unit tatted on my bitch too
i drink G-Unit water watchin G-Unit porn
this is Shade 45 nigga G-Unit on!

"50 Cent has built his career with songs about getting shot, shooting, watching other people shoot, cocking his gun and not shooting, cocking his gun and then shooting a verse later, and in general what happens when one gets shot. In case you don't know if you're listening to 50 Cent, always note how he'll announce his name at the beginning of each song. You know 50 Cent is tough because after his name is announced, you are likely to hear gunshots. This makes him tough as fuck."


Beautiful. :)
 
^ A true exercise in erudition is it not? Seldom has so much unctious prose been offered up to say so frighteningly little. It's art alright...:rolleyes: