What is the difference between prog and jazz fusion?

[JayKeeley]

And I mean 'prog' as in 'prog rock' etc. It's a fine line isn't it? 'Twas listening to "In the Court of the Crimson King" this morning, and it sounds like Pink Floyd with more jazz fusion elements.

Do people who listen to prog also listen to jazz or jazz fusion?

Also, how did prog ever attach itself to metal, where all paths traditionally lead to Black Sabbath? Prog bands don't really associate themselves with Sabbath, Maiden, and Priest etc, but more so King Crimson, Kansas, and Yes - correct? So where did it crossover into traditional metal? Was there a specific band, say Dream Theater?

 

[NAD]

Prog metal is a false term as used today. Truly progressive music moves beyond the realms of what has already been done, and most prog metal bands are just taking what Dream Theatre did years ago and playing with it. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this (I don't like the music, but it's not bad), but it usually is not progressive.

That's all I have to add I guess, which doesn't really answer your question, but good job listening to In the Court.

 

[Black Winter Day]

1) I've always seen fusion as more "musican's music" than prog, which is more song oriented. Fusion almost always has jazz structures, where as prog many times has more classical elements, such as Genesis and Rick Wakeman.

2) Miles Davis mostly created fusion with "Bitches Brew". It came out of the jazz scene, not prog.

3) Prog does have connections to metal. Remember, Rick Wakeman played on "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" and was always friends with the band. Many original prog bands had sounds that were seriously heavy for the time, especially KC ("21st Century Schizoid Man"), Genesis ("The Knife", "The Return of the Giant Hogweed") and Yes ("Starship Trooper", "Heart of the Sunrise"). So I guess the connections always sort of been there.

4) First band to truely bridge the gap between metal and prog? Hmmm... I'd say Fates Warning.

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Fusion is the mix of jazz and rock. I think that some people who like prog rock/metal, enjoy bands like Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return To Forever, or some Al Di Meola (like i do).
Its hard to define who was the first progressive metal band.
If Rush are metal then its them.
If not (a thing that the majority will say), then there are some albums that can be called just "progressive metal" were the first of the genre:
Queensryche - Rage For Order
Watchtower - Energetic Dissasembly
and then
Fates Warning - Perfect Symmetry
"Images And Words" was just the major prog metal hit, and the most well known prog metal album, so some think it was the first one too. Their first album cant be callled prog metal.
The bands that played prog metal, were just metalheads that listened to prog rock (or someday they discovered it). For example in Queensryche, the guitar players were Iron Maiden fanatics, while Geoff Tate loved Genesis. The combination did the trick: Rage For Order

 

[lizard]

to me, prog rock is an obvious lean to the rock direction with certain jazz elements noticable, and fusion is an obvious lean in the jazz direction with certain rock elements noticable.

for instance, I like some prog rock but I tend not to have the patience for fusion because its too much of a swing in the other direction. Except for Jaco Pastorius stuff, which just so wierdly amazing I have to listen.

 

[spaffe]

Sorry about the off-topicness but I came to think of this when I read "prog rock":

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174485
(Isn't six or so bands enough?)

 

[Demonspell]

I agree that progressive metal can be owed to musicians being influenced by prog rock and drawing upon it as a means of expanding their sound, but Jay is right that there is a divide in the other direction...with a few exceptions, I don't see too many prog bands being influenced by metal unless you count the more avant-garde bands with ties to the metal scene as prog, which I do in many cases...

 

[JayKeeley]

Listening to King Crimson tonight..."In the Court...."

Anyway, track #3 is beautiful. I didn't realize they incorporated folk into their sounds, because this sounds folky.

OK, and then we have track #4 and the whole 'R2-D2 falling of a cliff' thing, which is just ridiculous! I HAVE to assume it works better when you're on LSD.

 

[Black Winter Day]

That would be "Moonchild" and yes, it is fucked up.

I don't think that ItCotCK is the quintessential prog album, though, nor is it even the best KC. Hell, I'm not even sure if it is top 3 in their discography.

My favorite is also "Epitaph" (track 3). Gotta love the mellotron.

 

[NAD]

OK, and then we have track #4 and the whole 'R2-D2 falling of a cliff' thing, which is just ridiculous! I HAVE to assume it works better when you're on LSD.

Didn't I tell you to disregard this moment!? The first part is pretty wicked though.

Track 3 is Epitaph, one of my favorite Crimso songs.

I don't think that ItCotCK is the quintessential prog album, though, nor is it even the best KC. Hell, I'm not even sure if it is top 3 in their discography.

Let me rank them, I think this lies at about #5 or 6.

Larks' Tongues in Aspic 10/10 BUY OR DIE!!!111
The Power to Believe (yes, this high)
Lizard
Starless and Bible Black
In the Court
others, except Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair because they both are pretty craptacular.

EDIT x2: Actually it's pretty futile to rank these, #1 Larks' #2 everything else, #3 Beat and 3oaPP

 

[Black Winter Day]

You forgot Red on that list, queer!

 

[Demonspell]

Epitaph: doesn't get more epic, best use of mellotron ever, except maybe Starless and a handful of Genesis songs. As for what Crimson Jay should get next, Larks Tongues and Red are absolutely essential.

 

[NAD]

You forgot Red on that list, queer!

Other than Fallen Angel, this one is a bit overrated. So that puts it at a... 9/10 score.

I would agree that if JayKeeley wishes to pursue the path of Crimson this, or if he's looking for folkish stuff maybe Lizard or even Larks, should be next. Or if In the Court is really your thing, get Poseidon next, since it's pretty much In the Court Part 2.

Shit, I'm still missing Islands.

 

[JayKeeley]

I have to admit, I like KC more than I thought. I cannot deny the retro vibe of anything created in the 60's/70's -- it's hard to ignore that innocence.

Still, I'll absorb this more and then go back (forward?) to "Power to Believe"...

 

[NAD]

YAR!!!

I shouldn't have burned you The Power to Believe first, only the 4-disc live all-jam collection The ProjeKcts is more inaccessible.

 

[MFJ]

Okay, I don't believe I've ever mentioned this band on Royal Carnage. Anyone who knows my e-mail address (MahavishnuMaximus@yahoo.com) knows that I have an obsession with the Mahavishnu Orchestra. HANDS DOWN BEST Jazz Fusion ever. If you haven't heard them, you must contact me so I can school you. I have their albums on CD and Vinyl and I have an extremely rare BBC Bootleg that I've never seen available anywhere before.

[/fanboi]

 

[Black Winter Day]

Yeah, John McLaughlin is a guitar god. I have their first 3 as well as a JM solo album. All definitely pwn.

 

[JayKeeley]

Man, I am loving "In the Court of the Crimson King". I had a huge d'oh moment today listening to the title track....I must have heard that 100 times already but I just never put 2 and 2 together....yeah, great album.

The first track, "21st Century Schizoid Man" is indeed a metal riff - I'm sure Sabbath ripped this off. In fact, there is a Sabbath song that sounds similar to this...."The Wizard" perhaps?

One of the tracks sounds a bit Beatles-esque as well, something very similar to "A Day in the Life"....I heard the news today, oh boy....anyone else picked all this up, or am I over 30 years late to the chit chat?

 

[Black Winter Day]

I think you're referring to "I Talk to the Wind". Sounds a bit Beatle-esque and stoned.

NAD, there may be hope for this bint yet!

 

[JayKeeley]

Someone bump the "retro 60's/70's" thread - momma, I'm coming home!