Worried about a leak?

[circus_brimstone]

It's tough for bands to prevent leaks these days, even ones that are lower in quality than the final recording (i.e. Mastodon) or include preventive measures such as voice-overs or shortened songs (i.e. Katatonia, Amorphis). Are you guys worried about The Novella Reservoir leaking? Have you taken any steps to ensure that it won't?

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Are we worried about a leak? Definitely. I think every cd from "The Knowing" on, wound up being leaked well before it's release. Unfortunately there's really nothing you can do about it. You can take preventative measures like voice-overs and stuff, which might help in terms of people still wanting to purchase the unaltered version. But it doesn't change the fact that people are hearing the cd by itself without the artwork and lyrics, etc., and we're very adamant that the art/lyrics/music are all meant to be taken together. Obviously the music has to stand on its own, but I think you understand what I'm saying....

I'm very eager for people to hear this stuff so naturally I want to let people hear it as soon as possible! But I just hate when it becomes out of our control. But again, in today's world, there's just nothing you can do, short of not sending out ANY promo copies prior to the actual release date. And that presents problems of a different kind then...

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

At first i thought this thread was going to be about loss of bladder control. Im disappointed.

 

[Lionfrost]

At first i thought this thread was going to be about loss of bladder control. Im disappointed.

You were counting on a few tips to get that issue under control then, were you Wolftribe?

 

[Jasonic]

Well, in a way, aren't leaks actually a good thing?
I mean, as long as the material is top notch, having a leak might expose someone to the band who might not go out to buy the album.

Leaks are like free advertising, in a way.

I think those planning on buying the album will buy it regardless of it leaking or not. If it does leak though, someone who might not know the band or who were on the fence will get a preview.

Just my two cents....

 

[General Zod]

If it wasn't for file sharing, I would have no idea who ND was. However, because of file sharing, I own a couple of their CDs, an ND t-shirt and have seem them live.

Zod

 

[Lionfrost]

Well, in a way, aren't leaks actually a good thing?
I mean, as long as the material is top notch, having a leak might expose someone to the band who might not go out to buy the album.

I understood the original post referred to leaking *prior* to the release itself, which imho is quite different from having samples or downloadable songs up *after* the release date. Most bands do that themselves as a means of advertising as well.
I would say post-release file sharing or what have you not doesn't classify as "leaking"...? On which note I might add "sharing" an entire album still kind of blows from where I'm standing. It's rather hard to pass that off as a way of trying to promote the band and getting people to go out and actually buy the album, isn't it?

 

[BrandonS]

I can say this now to you ND guys, I've received 100+ promos and not a single one of them has ever been ripped to a computer. So it'll be safe with me if you ever choose to send one in to UM for review.

I must admit, however, if it weren't for "illegal downloads" I would have never discovered metal. When I first heard metal, the only CDs I owned were the latest Blink182, yeah, punk. Then I heard Opeth on an internet radio stream, THE MOOR! What is your stance on internet radio? Anyway, if it wasn't for that - and the Napster downloading that occured afterwords - I wouldn't be here now, and I would have never started learning my instruments. So it's good that it spreads the word, and if people really like it, they'll buy it. If I received the ND promo and liked it, I would definitely buy it. I'm going to buy the new Rhapsody of Fire when it comes out, because I really loved that album and the artwork looks great for the cover! No artwork on the promo, more reason to buy the album.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Honestly, downloading is something that has become a part of modern times because of technology. I'm no angel myself, and have also discovered much amazing music because of this as well. I have no problems with people downloading our music. My issues are with the attitude people have, where they believe it's their "right" to steal the music, and then go on a bands official forum to brag about the fact they just downloaded a "leaked" version. A lot of this fucks actually post a link, or tell others in an open forum where to find it. This is an incredible slap in the face of the band, and the lack of respect astounds me. So you know, if you see our new CD has leaked, and you download it, cool. If you like it, support us, and buy it to assure we'll be able to make another CD for you in the future, and help spread the word. Tell others how much you like it, and in the end it all works out. We're not in this for the money, but the harsh reality is, if we don't sell the amount of copies the label needs to turn a profit, we don't get the same budget next time, or get dropped. Quality is important to us, and we're not done yet. Hell, even if you do download it, and are excited about it, start a thread and feel free to talk about it, just be RESPECTFUL and don't brag about HOW you got it.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Oinkness, I love internet radio. I listen to it constantly. Even just AOL Radio I enjoy alot, now that they have a range of stations from New Wave and Melancholia to Death Metal and Black Metal, etc. Plus the death metal station on AOL plays ND pretty often so that's nice I try to go and check out the many independant metal internet stations as much as I can.

 

[Lionfrost]

I think Internet radio is great and so are downloads. I just don't see the point of throwing an entire album online, especially not if it's by a band or artist in the situation Paul described. Metallica won't get a smaller budget because 10.000 people download their album (it will merely cause Lars to act like a hyperkinetic dwarf) but ND will most likely be in trouble if 1.000 people do the same with theirs.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hell, you know, all I was doing was give my opinion and point out what I would or wouldn't do. It's not like any of this is going to have any effect on me personally, in fact I can't really be bothered. I have my integrity and don't mind how others might act, much less judge them for it. All I can say is I'll be happy with the previews and downloads the band provides and then go on to buy the album when it's released. Life can be so easy...

 

[Jasonic]

There have always been two kinds of music fans. One are the true die-hard fans who purchase every release by their favorite bands. These fans are the type to also make blind purchases. (For example, after getting into Novembers Doom, and reading the comparisons, I purchases a couple My Dying Bride CDs).

Next are the casual music fans. These are the ones who may only purchase bands they already know about, or even only make a copy from a friend. They like and appreciate music, but aren't fanatical about it.

I think what downloads have done is enabled bands and labels to profit from those fans who probably never planned to buy the album in the first place, but at least now they can sell them one or two tracks.

This is probably not too applicable to underground metal, but more to commercial pop and rock fans (Who would only (and sadly) be interested in the songs for which there is a video for). I truly know people like this who say things like, "Why would I want to buy the album when only a few songs are good enough to make it to the radio"?

For underground metal though, downloads and samples expose bands and genres to those who are more likely to make blind purchases based on what they hear.

Sorry if I am rambling. Hopefully I made some sense here.

 

[the_drip]

Honestly, downloading is something that has become a part of modern times because of technology. I'm no angel myself, and have also discovered much amazing music because of this as well. I have no problems with people downloading our music. My issues are with the attitude people have, where they believe it's their "right" to steal the music, and then go on a bands official forum to brag about the fact they just downloaded a "leaked" version. A lot of this fucks actually post a link, or tell others in an open forum where to find it. This is an incredible slap in the face of the band, and the lack of respect astounds me. So you know, if you see our new CD has leaked, and you download it, cool. If you like it, support us, and buy it to assure we'll be able to make another CD for you in the future, and help spread the word. Tell others how much you like it, and in the end it all works out. We're not in this for the money, but the harsh reality is, if we don't sell the amount of copies the label needs to turn a profit, we don't get the same budget next time, or get dropped. Quality is important to us, and we're not done yet. Hell, even if you do download it, and are excited about it, start a thread and feel free to talk about it, just be RESPECTFUL and don't brag about HOW you got it.

That about sums it up perfect.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I think Internet radio is great and so are downloads. I just don't see the point of throwing an entire album online, especially not if it's by a band or artist in the situation Paul described. Metallica won't get a smaller budget because 10.000 people download their album (it will merely cause Lars to act like a hyperkinetic dwarf) but ND will most likely be in trouble if 1.000 people do the same with theirs.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope, you're not wrong, you pretty much hit it right on the head.

Every sale we can get really counts because we don't sell all that many copies of cds to begin with. It's great that the die-hards will buy your cd even if they already downloaded it. But for a band like ours who is still trying to build a fanbase and gain more ground, we can't exist and grow just on the sales to die-hard fans alone. Though of course, if we didn't have those diehard fans to count on to support us, we'd really be screwed.

Pretty much it doesn't really matter how cool a band is or how awesome an album might be, if it doesn't manage to generate enough money for the record label, then that means the band will either not get a decent budget to record or tour next time, or it might even mean being dropped all together. A label like The End for example cannot afford to dole out the cash to bands who cannot bring enough money in to make it worth it. (And, that being said, The End does in fact sign and support alot of artists who are not necessarily big sellers or have much commercial appeal. The End signs and supports bands who have something unique and interesting to offer artistically, and are willing to take a gamble on them, which I think they should be commended for.)

It's been proven that being able to download free music from an artist has at times helped that artist to gain more exposure and widen their appeal, and perhaps get people interested in a band, or album, that maybe they wouldn't have already known or cared about.

But it's also proven that downloading can definitely hurt sales too. And not just because someone downloaded a cd and "didn't like it" enough to buy it. I hear people all the time saying "Oh I will definitely buy a cd that I download for free if I like it." Honestly? I think a lot of times that's a bunch of crap, lol. Why? Because I've seen myself and others close to me pull the same shit! There's a couple of albums that I really like alot, that someone gave me a free burned cd of. And I still haven't bought 'em. Whether it be laziness, being too broke, or simply just procrastinating and putting it off 'til later, because I "at least have a copy of it to still listen to in the meantime." I mean that's just being honest, I'm not proud of it but I'm guilty of it too and so are an awful lot of other people I'm sure. So the thing is, while it's cool that maybe there's 1000 people who downloaded it early and for free and love the record, if those 1000 people now wind up putting off being in any sort of a hurry to buy our cd because they've already downloaded it early, and probably listened to it quite a bit by the time it even finally hits the shelves, then that can really hurt our chances of getting the budget and support we need to carry on and tour, make new merch, and especially record another cd that's as good quality as the previous one.

When people like Lars or some of these other major stars complain about it, I can't help but feel like, while they might have a legit arguement on some points, they're just upset that they can't gas up their private jet now because of downloading profit losses, haha. For us it's different....we make zero money to go into our own pockets. And we certainly don't give a shit about Soundscan or music charts (other than underground metal radio charts or something). Any issue I have with free downloading or early leaks has to do with hurting the future sales of our cd enough that it could hinder our future plans for the band, thats it.

Anyhow bottom line is, there's nothing we can really do about it. The only thing is that we try to make the best product possible, both musically and with the packaging and artwork, etc., and hope that it's strong enough to make people want to own the complete thing.

 

[Jasonic]

Just out of curiousity, how many copies sold of the Pale Haunt Departure? Is it the biggest seller of the ND discography?

It amazes me when labels like Nuclear Blast boast, "IN FLAMES surpasses 100,000 copies in sales!!" I think, "Wow, in America alone each year they perform probably to more than 100,000. You would almost think that the sales figure would be higher...

 

[Danimal]

This is probably not too applicable to underground metal, but more to commercial pop and rock fans (Who would only (and sadly) be interested in the songs for which there is a video for). I truly know people like this who say things like, "Why would I want to buy the album when only a few songs are good enough to make it to the radio"?

For underground metal though, downloads and samples expose bands and genres to those who are more likely to make blind purchases based on what they hear.

I completely agree... Metal bands seem to be more interested in making complete albums that just one or two "hit" songs and a bunch of filler. I don't know any metalheads that buy individual songs. If you like a band, you tend to like the whole album (or at least most of it).

As far as downloading "leaked" CDs, I must admit I am as guilty as a lot of people. It is not that I am trying to rip off the band, I am usually just excited about the release and am too impatient to wait for the release day.

However, if I listen to a "leaked" album more than once (that probably means I must like it!), I make a point to run out and buy it within the first week that it comes out. Record companies seem to pay a lot of attention to first week sales and even though I already have the songs, I consider the purchase my "vote" to show the record company that they should continue supporting the band. This is especially true after going through the 90's when metal was all but dead. I remember having to wait for months between releases for CDs that I liked. Now that record companies are paying attention to metal again, I want to make sure that my "vote" is heard so that hopefully, they will continue to support the genre.

Its actually kind of funny, because I have a stack of 5 or 6 CDs that I bought recently that are still in the shrink wrap, because I already have them on my iPod! Sooner or later I will get around to opening them because I am definitely a big fan of CD artwork and I like to read the lyrics while listening. I have discovered a lot of cool new bands by downloading music, but I still enjoy the old fashioned "new album" experience.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Just out of curiousity, how many copies sold of the Pale Haunt Departure? Is it the biggest seller of the ND discography?

It amazes me when labels like Nuclear Blast boast, "IN FLAMES surpasses 100,000 copies in sales!!" I think, "Wow, in America alone each year they perform probably to more than 100,000. You would almost think that the sales figure would be higher...

I don't really know an exact number of how many copies we sold so far. It's really hard to accurately figure out a number like that, since the majority of copies sold is done through mail order, independant metal shops, and from our own website and gigs. It ain't even close to 100,000 I'll tell you that. lol

I think there's a big misconception amongst the average fan, that selling 100,000 copies isn't very much, and that bands should most likely be moving that much or more. Truth is, underground metal bands don't sell that much really, with some exceptions (such as In Flames). This is part of why it really hurts metal bands when people steal the music and don't buy it. There's no comparision between sales of In Flames or Nevermore with, say, Evanesence or Linkin Park.

Also, I also think it's a misconception regarding the number of people they play to in the U.S.A as well. I'd be surprised if any of these bands like In Flames actually play in front of 100,000 or more in one year's time here in the States (not counting if they're appearing on Ozzfest, etc. And when they do play Ozzfest that's usually when you finally see a spike in cd sales.)
Plus, I hate to make a big generalisation here, because I know fully well that there's plenty of exceptions out there, but I'd say that the biggest culprits of stealing music are the younger metal fans, the high school/junior high aged fans. Hey I can even understand why, many of them don't even have a real source of their own income yet, it's not like they can easily go out and just purchase every new cd when it comes out. I think the ability to download cds has really helped enlarge the younger metal fanbase, which is a good thing. But it also explains why, in an In Flames concert of say 1500 attendees, maybe half or so of those people actually bought and own the new cd.

I'm guessing, just judging by what I've seen in feedback from people and the way our fanbase seems to have grown, that TPHD is probably our best seller. I'm not too concerned with exactly how much it sells, as long as it sells steadily and well enough to keep the label satisfied and allow us to continue to do this. The End has been extremely supportive and never given us any great pressure to perform better, so that must be noted. But it does take alot of hard work on both our part as well as the label itself, to get a band like ND to sell enough cds to really make this profitable enough to continue and to evolve.

 

[Jasonic]

Danimal - The whole MP3 player issue is another thing that is strange.
Within the past 2 weeks, I purchased the new Maiden and Motorhead. Both are great and I ripped them both to my MP3 player.

Now that they are on the MP3 player, I really don't need the actual CD anymore. Being a fanboy of both Motorhead and Maiden though, I need to actually "own" both CDs.

But think about this though. There are many bands out there where I like but am not a fanboy. Nevermore for me is one example. When their last one came out, I got a leaked version. Once I had this, I didn't feel the need to buy the actual CD. (IE - Nevermore isn't a band where I care if I have the actual CD or booklet).

I wonder if there are others like this too, who got a leak of a band they were not fanatical enough about to run out and buy the CD.

Had it not been for the leak, I probably would have bought the Nevermore CD.

So I guess this is indeed not a clear cut black and white issue!!!

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

But think about this though. There are many bands out there where I like but am not a fanboy. Nevermore for me is one example. When their last one came out, I got a leaked version. Once I had this, I didn't feel the need to buy the actual CD. (IE - Nevermore isn't a band where I care if I have the actual CD or booklet).

I wonder if there are others like this too, who got a leak of a band they were not fanatical enough about to run out and buy the CD.

Had it not been for the leak, I probably would have bought the Nevermore CD.

So I guess this is indeed not a clear cut black and white issue!!!

That, Jasonic, is precisely the point I've been making all along.

I daresay that a band like ND can very easily fall into this category for alot of people.....they enjoy the band well and good, but aren't really diehard or serious enough about the band to go out and buy it if they already got it for free. Any business out there relies not only on the diehards or the dedicated consumers, but also on the impulse buyers and the more "casual" consumer's dollar as well.

But this is a part of the debate where you're never going to really get people to agree because there's going to be those who feel that they shouldn't have to pay for something that they don't feel was so good that it wasn't worth them spending the $12 on it. My feeling there is....okay fine. If you downloaded our album and didn't like it enough to buy it then you're right, there's no point in buying it. But then do you have a right to still essentially "own" that copy you stole online so that you can go ahead and listen to it whenever you feel like it, because while you didn't "love" it enough to go buy it, you still do like listening to it from time to time?


But eh, what can ya do? I can bitch all I want and make all the points in the world and it's still not going to stop people from doing it. I think the serious fans and supporters of this band will find ways to support us even if they download the cd first. At least I sure hope so.


So, here's something I'd like to add to this topic and see what people think.....Does anyone here feel like it sorta ruins the experience for them when they download a leaked album early? Like, has anyone felt afterwards like they sorta wished they'd just have waited to get it when they could get the whole package all at once and have the experience of being surprised?

 

[Jasonic]

WOW!!! My comments really had an impact on you Larry, as you replied THREE times!!!

To your new question:
I did NOT listen to the leaks of Maiden or Motorhead for the exact reason you have posted. I eagerly awaited the release date to hear it. I still get excited to see the CD in the store for the first time.

I will do the same with the new ND, as well as the new Rhapsody and Manowar albums.

Everyone is different.
For me, I guess it depends how hardcore of a fan of a band I am.
It is weird I guess when I think about it, that I don't run out to download a band that I love. As said, the excitement of release day keeps me from cheating.....

Same goes for setlists!!!! When the reviews start coming in for the upcoming Maiden tour, I will NOT click on those threads.

A few tours back, I clicked on a thread not knowing that it contained the setlist for the then current Iced Earth tour. Needless to say, it did ruin the experience of the gig, as there was no surprise since I knew what song was going to be next.

After that show, I stay away from threads relating to tours I am planning on seeing.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent, but it does relate, in terms of wanting to be surprised and hold out for the release date / concert date.