Touring Discussion (part 2)

[Palabra de Dios]

This is a continuation of the Blackguard thread (of sorts)...

I think that the prog and power metal genres are under-appreciated by the American market. And I think that goes without saying, seeing how small the power metal tours are here compared to the ones over in Europe.

Obviously, Claus (an others) can corroborate that it makes much more financial sense for the Euro bands to tour heavily in Europe, because they play to more people over there.

But my question is why? Why do you think the American scene doesn't support bands like Edguy, Blind Guardian, Sonata Arctica, or Hammerfall as handily as they do bands like Lamb of God, Avenged Sevenfold, or Killswitch Engage?

And by support, I do not mean that the aforementioned power metal bands (and their ilk) do not tour here. But a "good" turnout to those shows is usually less than a thousand people, whereas in Europe, aren't these groups playing for FAR more people a night?

Is it simply a big difference in taste? Do the masses in America just not give a shit for this brand of metal, and prefer bands that would list Pantera/Metallica as an influence before they would Iron Maiden or Helloween? Or is it that people support the music of their own country/continent? That can't be just the case, because from what I understand, metal fans are rabid for this type of music in Japan and Mexico (and other countries). So what do you guys think?

Commence.

 

[dcowboys311]

Well Pantera, Metallica, Lamb of God, etc are all American bands.
More exposure. More publicity. More time to get their name out here.

The prog/power metal bands are (mostly) European. The style of music is primarily European.
It's not like power metal is even the only one that does worse than the Panteras and Lamb of Gods of the world. That can be said for pretty much every form of 'true metal'.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

It still seems like the mass American fans dig the more aggressive tough guy portion of metal than the flashy musicianship or cool lyrics of "true metal" genres. How many guys at shows are just there to mosh and go crazy? Too many...but they pay for admission just like I do.

It's just interesting to me.

 

[dcowboys311]

It is interesting. I don't think it's limited to metal though.
Hardcore suffers from the same thing. All the kids come out for the "tough guy" bands.
I even think it's the same way for mainstream rock. You see a lot more 24 year old white males with Tapout and Affliction shirts rocking out to Godsmack than you do Rush.

 

[Mardoch]

I think it's got a lot to do with exposure, really. I went to see Soilwork in Houston in August and the place was woefully underfilled. Perhaps about half full, at best. But when I saw Demon Hunter a couple of years before that, the place was packed. Now, I realize that those two aren't exactly apples to apples. I think that with enough exposure, they could share a decent chunk of their audiences though.

 

[Jasonic]

I think it has a LOT to do with image.

To the young US metal fans, the Euro bands come off as cheasy and outdated. There is very little appreciation for anything that seems like 70's or 80's classic rock / metal, either in sound or aesthetic.

I don't give a rat's ass what anyone says, but even something as trivial as Anders from IN FLAMES getting dreadlocks was partially a factor of their success ans Jesper starting to wear knit hats in promo photos.

What is going to be more appealing to a 15 year old boy who at that time thought heavy metal began and ended with Marilyn Manson and Rob Zombie? IN FLAMES or HELLOWEEN, HAMMERFALL, etc, etc.

I think it was around 2003, Diabolik and I went to a show with the Haunted, Kataklysm, Bleeding Through, and Shai Halud. As expected, it was a wide mix of folks. We were in line with some high school kids and were discussing bands. Manowar came up, and most of the kids seriously thought they were a classic rock bands, not even a metal band.

Point being that aesthetics is EXTREMELY important to the impressionable youth. So, lots of the prog and post 1990 power metal bands aren't going to appeal instantly to a younger crowd. Furthermore, for older fans who would like it, you have to be more in-the-know about it.

I have an older brother who is almost 40. He's the reason I got into metal at a very young age and started going to shows in 1985. All the time I will play him some younger band that he digs. He loves Iced Earth, for example. Honestly though, he is not into the online community at all. Without me, he wouldn't even know these bands exist.

What I think helps a lot is when a post 1990 band tours with an older band (IE - When HammerFall opened for Dio, and now with Sabaton opening for Accept). You will then get exposed to younger fans as well as older fans who otherwise would never discover your band.

Just my 2 cents.
*eagerlyawaitsclausandneiltosavethedayintellingusallwhyjasoniciswrong*

 

[dcowboys311]

Shai Hulud is the best band on that tour and, oddly enough, is another example of a band being overlooked by the majority of the hardcore community. Sucks. They're so good.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

*eagerlyawaitsclausandneiltosavethedayintellingusallwhyjasoniciswrong*

*noneedforthatasyouapparentlyalreadyknowyourselfwhenyourewrongjason*

What I think helps a lot is when a post 1990 band tours with an older band (IE - When HammerFall opened for Dio, and now with Sabaton opening for Accept). You will then get exposed to younger fans as well as older fans who otherwise would never discover your band.

Such as Blackguard touring with an "older band" like Nevermore t.ex.? Perhaps that would expose them to the older fan who would otherwise never discover the band?

 

[dcowboys311]

And yeah, it makes sense that young kids listen to newer bands.
You didn't want to listen to music made by 50 year olds when you were 15, did you?

 

[Palabra de Dios]

Do the Euro bands make more money playing in Europe just because it's close to home? I guess I don't know the cost in playing overseas...

But do the tours in Japan and Mexico seem more successful because they usually have fewer dates than a North American 20-30 city tour?

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Do the Euro bands make more money playing in Europe just because it's close to home? I guess I don't know the cost in playing overseas...

That's completely impossible to answer ... it depends on the band, on how the tour is put together, etc.

I would say, as a rule of thumb, that touring in North America is expensive due to longer travel distances between venues. In most of Europe (of course with few outliers) there's 6-8 hours drive from one city to the next stop on a well put together tour. In the states you typically would have longer drives (which easily means that you need more off days and that way make their tour more expensive).

Venues in Europe pretty much pay the same for bands as venues over here. There's not a big difference. If you're an unknown band you might be lucky and get a door deal, but sometimes you might have to RENT the venue on your own. If you're a known band, you'll get a certain fee from the venue to perform, and it's pretty comparable in the US to what you'd be getting in Europe.

Now, where it makes sense for a European band to be touring in Europe, compared to the US is all the "political stuff":
- visas
- insurance on gear
- insurance on people
And of course it would cost more to fly to USA with equipment (or you'd have to rent it)...

But do the tours in Japan and Mexico seem more successful because they usually have fewer dates than a North American 20-30 city tour?

I'm not sure how it works in Mexico, but for Japan any tour there will "be successful" simply because the market in Japan is put together like it is - no booking agent in Japan (which is closely related to the record labels in Japan) will consider bringing you into the country until you've sold AT LEAST xxx amount of albums there. In other words, they wait taking you into Japan until they are sure that your show will be a success.

c.

 

[TribunalRecords]

I think it's got a lot to do with exposure, really. I went to see Soilwork in Houston in August and the place was woefully underfilled. Perhaps about half full, at best. But when I saw Demon Hunter a couple of years before that, the place was packed. Now, I realize that those two aren't exactly apples to apples. I think that with enough exposure, they could share a decent chunk of their audiences though.

yeah it's completely apples to oranges simply because Demon Hunter are a christian band. the christian market has it's own scene unto itself. people you will NEVER see at any other regular metal show, but they come out in droves for the word of Jesus.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Shai Hulud is the best band on that tour and, oddly enough, is another example of a band being overlooked by the majority of the hardcore community. Sucks. They're so good.

you mean they WERE good. they new stuff doesn't hold up anymore. well, to me anyway.

 

[Jasonic]

Such as Blackguard touring with an "older band" like Nevermore t.ex.? Perhaps that would expose them to the older fan who would otherwise never discover the band?

Were they on THAT tour too?????????

Yep, that is indeed a good move. Agreed.

 

[Jasonic]

And yeah, it makes sense that young kids listen to newer bands.
You didn't want to listen to music made by 50 year olds when you were 15, did you?

I always liked what I liked.
I was heavily into Pink Floyd when I was as young as 12 (possibly even younger).

I dunno. Seems like older bands like Zep, AC/DC, etc are marketed pretty darn hard to younger audiences.

It seems to work with the classic rock bands, but not the metal bands for some reason.

Good example, was when I saw URIAH HEEP this year.
I am 35 and was EASILY the youngest guy in the crowd.

How come there weren't at least 10 Chicago area BLIND GUARDIAN fans at this event? Easily. On the surface, if you see a promo photo of UH, they seem like an old fogey band. Hell, DIABOLIK (who never even heard them) thinks they are a white trash band (he probably has no clue that they are NOT a US band).

Ok, so this is getting a LITTLE off topic, since there will always be many bands that underground metal fans should and could like and appreciate, but based on when they came out, have a certain stigma that keeps potential fans away from checking them out.

 

[Diabolik]

The death, thrash, folk, and extreme bands are smart. It seems who ever is putting those touring packages together knows what they are doing. They are tossing 4 or 5 bands on together who wouldnt draw huge on thier own but with those bands in that genre altogether really helps sell the package. Look at the current Overkill / Forbidden tour or the Pagan Fest or the Kataklysm tour a while back with Keep of Kalisiem and Eluevite and Dying Fetus I think. They remind me of tiny touring fest.

It seems when the power metal acts tour here it is just them and 4 different style of acts which usually dont go well along musiclly with the headliner. Like when Sonata had The Agonist, Edguy had a bunch of metalcorish bands on different tuors. Sure this may bring in a couple younger kids but we rarely see a power metal package tour. I wonder if there was something like3 or 4 quality power metal acts on a US tour if the draw would be slightly better than when they tour with 4 bands not in thier genre.

 

[dcowboys311]

you mean they WERE good. they new stuff doesn't hold up anymore. well, to me anyway.

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of the latest record. Did an interview with Matt Fox once and all we did was sit around and talk about Voivod and Venom. It was great.

 

[Diabolik]

How come there weren't at least 10 Chicago area BLIND GUARDIAN fans at this event? Easily. On the surface, if you see a promo photo of UH, they seem like an old fogey band. Hell, DIABOLIK (who never even heard them) thinks they are a white trash band (he probably has no clue that they are NOT a US band).

QUOTE]

I have HEARD them. I dont like em. Did you take a roll call of all the people there seeing if they liked Blind Guardian??? Just because they were not wearing BG t-shirts how do you know they dont like them???? I never called them a white trash band.....I said thier fanbase was.

It is funny hearing your theories on concerts when you only go to like 4 a year. please continue.........

 

[Dolamite S. Biffle]

I wonder if there was something like3 or 4 quality power metal acts on a US tour if the draw would be slightly better than when they tour with 4 bands not in thier genre.

I remember a rumor of a Edguy/Brainstorm/Pagan's Mind US tour at one point, I still hope for something that godly again someday

 

[Diabolik]

I remember a rumor of a Edguy/Brainstorm/Pagan's Mind US tour at one point, I still hope for something that godly again someday

See, that is a tour. Not that I am a fan of all the bands but it is a solid line up that may bring in people who would not go and see Edguy with 4 locals and metalcorish acts because they have seen them already but this may bring them back out.