4x12 recording: How much air movement is enough?

[no-xplode]

Hello there,

I am curious about the amp levels of recording a distorded guitar sound.

My setups consists of an LTD guitar EMG-81 into an Ibanez Ts-9 into a Peavey 6505 into a Mesa Recto 4x12. I can get a great sound at a low level such as Post Gain being at 1, but as I raise that Post Gain knob, the amp/cab frequency responce changes (to my ears it sounds like a mid-boost when cranking it up). Eventually, as I go to like 2 or 3 on the Post Gain, I need to cut some mids on the amp to sound equally as good as on the Post Gain 1 setting. Then the cab starts to move some in front of the grill, so at Post Gain 2 I feel the air (I use my finger's back hair to feel it) pushing away like 3 or 4 inches. I don't know if i should place my mics at the edge of that air-pressure from the cab or somewhere in between.
To sum up, what's your preferable level to record the 6505? I really cannot stand Post Gain 4 in my room, but on Post Gain 1 I get a really great tone that I want to record (yet in that case there is no air movement from the cab) but results most of the time are not acceptable. I going for that hardcore-tight-betweentheburiedandme's alaska-tone
So what are your levels on the 6505? How much air movent do you allow and do you even place the mic(s) depending on the length of that movement? Are there any examples of great recorded tone at Post Gain on 1?

Looking forward to your replies

 

[DestroyTheColossus]

Here's a great thread that might help you find what your looking for with settings:
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/andy-sneap/381940-peavey-6505-a.html

Right now i just have the 6505. I've been looking to get a tubescreamer and mesa cab, but haven't had the chance yet. Anyway, I get a great tone with these settings:

High Gain Input
Lead Channel
Pre Gain - 4
Low - 6
Mid - 3.5
High - 4
Resonance - 6
Presence - 6

I haven't heard the amp sound that good at 1 on the post gain. It seems like the tubes dont really kick in there. For recording and practice I have the post gain at 3.5. It would be really loud if it were in the same room as you, but if you can get the amp out of your room, and just use a long chord or something, it sounds good miced.

 

[greyskull]

i normally record with the master on 4 - 5

 

[no-xplode]

That's pretty damn loud. I have never turned the amp past 2.5 on post gain.

My room is a bit live sounding and I can hear some ms of echo when I stop playing. Maybe its that reverberation (even at that low level) that makes the cab scream even at post on 2. Do you think that if I build something like a small little dead room to place the cab, should fix my problem? Have you seen anything like that manufactured somewhere? I mean a dead room inside a room, just for recording that loud 4x12 cab.

 

[xFkx]

I have used mattresses to create iso spaces for guitar cabs, and yeah.. post-gain @ 4 seams ok

 

[Zack Uidl]

I used to record my 6505+ at about 4 on the post-gain. Now, however, I have it at lower levels. It may just be me, but I don't notice a difference in tone from 2 on post-gain to 5 on post gain.

Most of the time, it is on 2 when recording

I guess the best thing would be a tone test to see for yourself if you notice a difference

 

[Metaltastic]

Preferably by reamping to take one more variable (performance) out of the equation!

 

[Omega_Void]

I feel the air (I use my finger's back hair to feel it) pushing away like 3 or 4 inches. I don't know if i should place my mics at the edge of that air-pressure from the cab or somewhere in between...
How much air movent do you allow and do you even place the mic(s) depending on the length of that movement?

Don't worry about feeling the breeze. Air movement gets credit for a lot of effects which are due to mass and inertia in the speaker's moving components and sound reflections inside the cabinet - and inside the room. The air is simply a medium for coupling speaker movement to the mic diaphragm, and although not perfect the losses involved are less than audible, according to experiments done in anechoic chambers.

The sound pressure levels (SPL) hitting the mic are only an issue at the two extremes - not enough SPL and you will need to add too much gain downstream resulting in poor signal-to-noise ratio, but too much SPL and the diaphragm will get overdriven and start to distort. Anywhere between those two extremes is fine IME.

Mic placement should be as close as possible to the cloth to get an upfront in-yer-face guitar sound. It also reduces the influence of the room sound, although it doesn't remove it completely and a bad-sounding room may limit the quality you can achieve without acoustic treatment. Cardioid mics experience a proximity effect where close placement creates more upper bass/lower mids in the recorded sound. You may want to reduce the effect by moving the mic(s) away a little, or you may find it sounds better to adjust your knob settings to compensate. You'll have to experiment to find which works best in your particular situation.

Different models of mic will impart a different overall sound to the recording also - it's a bit like an eq which you can't adjust. You may need to compensate for this also in your dial settings.

Closer to the centre of the cone will give you better definition as the mic will be in front of the voice coil which controls speaker movement. Moving out towards the edge of the cone gives less definition as the cone is not perfectly stiff and its compliance will absorb and diffuse some of the vibrations, especially in the higher frequencies. The low end will also lose out some. Again, experiment but for a good metal mix keep it close to the centre.

Listen carefully to the differences you hear between the recorded signal and what you heard in the room. Ask yourself questions like...

... "when I listen to the amp is my head directly in front of the speaker like the mic will be?" (speaker off-axis response)
... "when I listen to the playback do I do so at similar sound level to the amp?" (Fletcher-Munsen effect)
... "is my brain separating the sound of the amp from the sound reflections bouncing around the room I'm recording in?" (the mic can't do this as it only has one ear)

...and so on. There's lots of info on this forum and elswhere on the web on this topic. But in the end hands-on experimentation is the only way to improve your results.

 

[no-xplode]

Don't worry about feeling the breeze. Air movement gets credit for a lot of effects which are due to mass and inertia in the speaker's moving components and sound reflections inside the cabinet - and inside the room. The air is simply a medium for coupling speaker movement to the mic diaphragm, and although not perfect the losses involved are less than audible, according to experiments done in anechoic chambers.

The sound pressure levels (SPL) hitting the mic are only an issue at the two extremes - not enough SPL and you will need to add too much gain downstream resulting in poor signal-to-noise ratio, but too much SPL and the diaphragm will get overdriven and start to distort. Anywhere between those two extremes is fine IME.

Mic placement should be as close as possible to the cloth to get an upfront in-yer-face guitar sound. It also reduces the influence of the room sound, although it doesn't remove it completely and a bad-sounding room may limit the quality you can achieve without acoustic treatment. Cardioid mics experience a proximity effect where close placement creates more upper bass/lower mids in the recorded sound. You may want to reduce the effect by moving the mic(s) away a little, or you may find it sounds better to adjust your knob settings to compensate. You'll have to experiment to find which works best in your particular situation.

Different models of mic will impart a different overall sound to the recording also - it's a bit like an eq which you can't adjust. You may need to compensate for this also in your dial settings.

Closer to the centre of the cone will give you better definition as the mic will be in front of the voice coil which controls speaker movement. Moving out towards the edge of the cone gives less definition as the cone is not perfectly stiff and its compliance will absorb and diffuse some of the vibrations, especially in the higher frequencies. The low end will also lose out some. Again, experiment but for a good metal mix keep it close to the centre.

Listen carefully to the differences you hear between the recorded signal and what you heard in the room. Ask yourself questions like...

... "when I listen to the amp is my head directly in front of the speaker like the mic will be?" (speaker off-axis response)
... "when I listen to the playback do I do so at similar sound level to the amp?" (Fletcher-Munsen effect)
... "is my brain separating the sound of the amp from the sound reflections bouncing around the room I'm recording in?" (the mic can't do this as it only has one ear)

...and so on. There's lots of info on this forum and elswhere on the web on this topic. But in the end hands-on experimentation is the only way to improve your results.

Thanks for the info