A Question For Pagans

[hyena]

Okay, I am not afraid: I boldly post a thread, let's see what happens.

I want to ask those of you who are of Pagan or Neo-Pagan (i don't even know the difference) religion: what are your fundamental beliefs? And no, I'm not asking this to crack precise jokes as opposed to generic ones

h (i'm not alone, i'm not afraid, i'm bubububu)

 

[Wanderingblade]

"Paganism in its purest form is just common sense. It's about having respect for yourself, respect for other people and for all the other life forms on the planet. A lot of people have this view of Pagans as tree-huggers and hippie weed-smokers and what have you, but in loving nature you have to accept the dark side of it and nature is a very cruel and brutal things. Its an endless cycle of death and rebirth..."

Martin Walkyier.

 

[Dark_Jester]

Go Blade \m/

I agree wholeheartedly...I've nicked the different parts of religions that I believe to be best for my personal beliefs.
My religion basically has the one concept - be good, and don't harm others. It works for me anyway

 

[Naku ist krig]

I am 15 years old.
Was that the answer?

 

[manuelgv]

I believe in a god,but that god is a mixture from different cultures and religions.
I don't praise nature but I think it's way more powerful than us

 

[Crash Nancy]

Okay, I am not afraid: I boldly post a thread, let's see what happens.

I want to ask those of you who are of Pagan or Neo-Pagan (i don't even know the difference) religion: what are your fundamental beliefs? And no, I'm not asking this to crack precise jokes as opposed to generic ones

h (i'm not alone, i'm not afraid, i'm bubububu)

Embrace your bu.

Here's the problem: if you choose to ask 20 pagans of their core beliefs, you're bound to get 20 different answers. The general concencus believes that pagans (or "country dwellers" - IIRC was originally meant as an insult, not a definition..) are members of pantheistic, tribal, shamanistic, and polytheistic religions not attributed to Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Paganism *is* a part of a religious movement that predates Christianity and monotheism - or pre-Christian nature religions of the West. Modern, or *neo* includes references to sole (Gaia), multi, or tri (Mother-Maiden-Crone) Goddess worship, newer religions based on or revivals of "ancient" European religions (Norse, Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Celtic - your original polytheists). Doh, almost forgot - surviving tribal religions as well. Neo-pagans vary by the individual; meaning a core group could exist of 13 members - each with differing practices and ways of living their religion. Then there's self-dedicated, self-initiated...

I could go on and on. And on. But hopefully that breaks down the difference enough. For a handy guide that defines nature-based religions even further, feel free to ask for some book titles. PMs are always open.

Now, onto *my* core belief.
"I Am."
"I Will."
"I Create."
These statements are the triumverate of Chaos.

I even got my pagan redneck jokes handy...

 

[mousewings]

Way to go in explaining, Episode666.

To share my own personal beliefs and related culture:
For me, I don't follow any formal religion, but I do believe in some aspects of the old faiths from my ancestral lands. I guess Pagan is the closest that comes to describing my beliefs...

I believe in an afterlife and that the spirits of those departed can still visit this world and help if asked. They watch over us. In the tradition of my peoples' old beliefs, to show appreciation and express that they are not forgotten, offerings are left to them at either their gravesites or altars dedicated to them in homes. There are also special days to honour the dead, but they are honoured throughout the year.

As a personal experience:
While in Hong Kong, I remember visiting the graves of my grandparents to burn incense, candles, and paper objects (symbolic of goods in the afterlife). My relatives and I also offered food, by placing it near the graves during the ceremony, and wine, by pouring it at the foot of the graves.

To my knowledge, few Chinese people do this here in the graveyards in Canada, but a lot do leave offerings in their homes. I think few people truly believe in the old faiths; I know the large majority of my family does not. Oddly enough, even those who don't believe and whose religions do not include these rituals often still do them, out of tradition perhaps (as this goes back thousands of years).

This is only my personal experiences and related to my family... so I may be wrong for the big picture... My own personal beliefs do include and focus on the above, as I believe in the afterlife and the presense of spirits.

 

[red_beef]

It's true that some Chinese do not have any form of religion. You could see this mostly in China, Hong Kong, Singapore & Malaysia. But only at a small count. My father side does not have any.

Old faiths are common seen here in Asian regions. Mostly during buriel ritual, New Year & other events in the chinese calender. New Year can be seen world wide. But I don't think the same about buriel ritual.

As for Pagan, I think them as Druid. The one with nature. That is as far I could understand about them. So this thread is intresting. I would like to see other people opinions.

- red_beef

 

[hyena]

Thanks everyone for the information! Keep it coming, I am learning a lot from you I'm especially interested in the synchretistic aspect of this form of religion: I think Ben made the message clear in his post, but I'm not sure the "assemblage of interesting bits" applies to everyone. I really really need to understand how come this approach is progressively more widespread, and no, I don't do this to crack jokes either

@Episode666: I wish I could PM you but this connection is so slow that in order to open the PM panel I would have to wait about three thousand years, and possibly my questions would be outdated by then I will try at home. Just one tiny shot now: is there any concept of guilt in any of the possible Pagan interpretations of one's relation with oneself or nature? Sorry if I still appear overgeneralizing, I'm just as ignorant as the next guy. But I appreciate your suggestion that I embrace my bu

@mousewings: what is your belief concerning the hierarchy between man and spirits? are spirits more powerful than humans? is man free to act beyond the spirits' will or not? what happens if one disrespects their ancestors by failing to perform the acts you mentioned?

@red_beef: thanks for calling my thread "interesting" how would you describe the relationship between traditional Asian beliefs and monotheistic religions that have penetrated Asian territory? I think this applies to Islam more than Christianity at the moment, but I'm not even sure.

h (sweet-talker)

 

[red_beef]

@ hyena:

It's depends on the country. Malaysia being the most with Islam... say about 70% of the populations here. The other 20% are a Christian & 10% are a mix of bag...

I would discribed it as being weird... I can't really say about that. Guess it tend to shrink when it goes out of Asian territory. I see this alot when going oversees. Most of them don't even practice their religion tradition when outside Asian. It's more likely that people here in Asian take their religions more seriously when they are inside Asian territory. Lessen when outside. Seem as it's a must when your in your own country.

As for Muslim people here, well I could only say that even that they are born with it. Most of them don't act like one... But I don't think it's only in Islam only because you could see this happen with other religions.

When I think about it, the more advance our world become, the more we see people take it less seriously about their religion.

Enlight me on that if I'm wrong, please.

- red_beef

* edit the last line...

 

[Shrieker]

I am 15 years old.
Was that the answer?

Freedom of religion.

 

[hyena]

@red_beef: i think what you say about people being less and less interested in religion the more their lifestyle evolves it true, but only to a certain extent. i'd say that during the last decade there has been in most part of the world some kind of counter-tide, in forms that range from new spirituality such as New Age or, as I understand, Paganism to (statistically significant) rise in numbers of active Christian youth organization to intensification of practice and awareness in the Muslim countries. This is what I read, not sure it's true as I haven't been around the world as much as you have, let me know what I don't know.

 

[red_beef]

@ hyena:

What you said is true. It does goes around in most country. But my knowlage about Muslim is very limited. All I do know is that they are the only religion that have some rules about deciver... Those that have embrace Islam are not allow to left that religion for no reason.

Here, I found something intresting about Islam and Paganism [I think]... Taken from the Al-Quran:
-----------------------------
The Glorious Qur'aan 4:59
Sura:4. Nisaa Verse:59 Juz:5 Revealed:Madinah

Transliteration
YAA 'AYYUHAA 'ALLADHENA 'AAMANO AT.EcO 'ALLAAH WA- AT.EcO AR- RASOL WA- 'OLE AL- 'AMR MIN -KUM FA- 'IN TANAAZAcTUM FE SHAY' FA- RUDDO -HU 'ILAA 'ALLAAH WA- AR- RASOL 'IN KUNTUM TU'MINON BI- 'ALLAAH WA- AL- YAWM AL- 'AAKHIR DHAALIKA KHAYR WA- AH.SAN TA'WEL(AN)

Word for Word translation:

YAA 'AYYUHAA (O you) 'ALLADHENA (who) 'AAMANO (believe) AT.EcO (you obey)'ALLAAH (Allaah) WA- AT.EcO (and you obey) AR- RASOL (the Messenger) WA- 'OLE AL- 'AMR (and those having authority) MIN -KUM (among you) FA- 'IN (then if) TANAAZAcTUM (you dispute among yourself) FE (in) SHAY' (anything) FA- RUDDO -HU (refer it) 'ILAA (to) 'ALLAAH (Allaah) WA- AR- RASOL (and the Messenger) 'IN (if) KUNTUM (you) TU'MINON (believe) BI- 'ALLAAH (in Allaah) WA- AL- YAWM (and Day) AL- 'AAKHIR (the Last) DHAALIKA (that) KHAYR ( {is} better) WA- AH.SAN ( and more suitable) TA'WEL(AN) (for final} Interpretation)

Muhsin Khan
O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.

THE NECESSITY OF OBEYING THE RULER IN OBEDIENCE TO ALLAAH (SWT):

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn Abbas said that the Ayah,

AT.EcO 'ALLAAH WA- AT.EcO AR- RASOL WA- 'OLE AL- 'AMR MIN -KUM
Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority.

"Was revealed about 'Abdullah bin Hudafah bin Qays bin Adi, who the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) sent on military expedition." {Fath Al-Bari 8:101}
This statement was collected by the Group, with the exception of Ibn Majah {Muslim 3:1465, Abu Dawud 3:93, Tufhat Al-Ahwadhi 5:364 and An-Nasa'i 7:154) At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Gharib." Imam Ahmad recorded that Ali said, "The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) sent a troop under the command of a man from Al-Ansar. When they left, he became angry with them for some reason and said to them, 'Has not the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) commanded you to obey me?' They said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Collect some wood,' and then he started a fire.' The people almost entered the fire, but a young man among them said, 'You only ran away from the Fire to Allaah's Messenger (SAW). Therefore, do not rush until you go back to Allaah's Messenger (SAW), and if he commands you to enter it, then enter it.' When they went back to Allaah's Messenger (SAW), they told him what had happened, and the messenger (SAW) said,

(("Had you entered it, you would never have departed from it. Obedience is only in righteousness.")){Ahmad 1:82)

This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs {Fath Al-Bari 7:655, Muslim 3:1469}. Abu Dawud recorded that Abdullah bin Umar said that the Messenger of Allaah said,
(("The Muslim is required to hear and obey in that which he likes and dislikes, unless he was commanded to sin. When he is commanded to sin, then there is no hearing and obeying.))"

This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs {Abu Dawud 2626, Bukhari 7144 and Muslim 1839}. Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "We gave our pledge to Allaah's Messenger to hear and obey (our leaders), while active and otherwise, in times of ease and in times of difficulty, even if we were deprived of our due shares, and to not dispute this matter (Leadership) with its rightful people. The Prophet (SAW) said,
(("Except when you witness clear Kufr about which you have clear proof from Allaah.""))

This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs {Fath Al-Bari 13:204, Muslim 3:470). Another Hadith narrated by Anas states that Messenger of Allaah (SAW) said,
(("Hear and obey (your leader), even if an Ethiopian slave whose head is like a raisin, is made your chief."))

Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith {Fath Al-Bari 13:130}. Umm Al-Husayn said that she heard the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) giving a speech during the Farewell Hajj, in which he said;
(("Even if a slave was appointed over you, and he rules you with Allaah's Book, then listen to him and obey him."))

Muslim recorded this Hadith {Muslim 1838}. In another narration with Muslim, the Prophet (SAW) said,
((" Even if an Ethiopian slave, whose nose was mutilated..."))

In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) said,
((“Whoever obeys me, obeys Allaah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allaah. Whoever obey my commander, obeys me, and whoever disobeys my commander, disobeys me.””))

AT.EcO 'ALLAAH, adhere to His Book,

WA- AT.EcO AR- RASOL, and obey the Messenger, adhere to his Sunnah,

WA- 'OLE AL- 'AMR MIN –KUM, and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority.

In the obedience of Allaah which they command you, not what constitutes disobedience of Allaah, for there is no obedience to anyone in disobedience to Allaah, as we mentioned in the authentic Hadith, {Obedience is only in righteousness (Fath Al-Bari 13:130)}.

THE NECESSITY OF REFERRING TO THE QURAAN AND SUNNAH FOR JUDGMENT:

FA- 'IN TANAAZAcTUM FE SHAY' FA- RUDDO -HU 'ILAA 'ALLAAH WA- AR- RASOL
(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW),

Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, “(Refer) to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger {At-Tabari 8:504}. This is a command from Allaah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Quraan and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes. IN another Ayah, Allaah said,

WA- MAA IKHTALAFTUM FE -HI MIN SHAY' FA- H.UKM -HU 'ILAA 'ALLAAH (Quraan 42:10)
And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah (He is the ruling Judge).

Therefore, whatever the Book (Quraan) and Sunnah decide and testify to the truth of, is the plain truth. What is beyond truth, save falsehood? This is why Allaah said,

'IN KUNTUM TU'MINON BI- 'ALLAAH WA- AL- YAWM AL- 'AAKHIR
if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.

Meaning, refer the disputes and conflicts that arise between you to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (SAW) for judgment. Allaah’s statement,

'IN KUNTUM TU'MINON BI- 'ALLAAH WA- AL- YAWM AL- 'AAKHIR
if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.

indicates that those who do not refer to the Book and Sunnah for judgment in their disputes are not believers in Allaah or the Last Day. Allaah said,

DHAALIKA KHAYR That is better

meaning, referring to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (SAW) for judgment in various disputes is better,

WA- AH.SAN TA'WEL(AN) and more suitable for final determination.
Meaning, “Has a better end and destination,” as As-Suddi and several others have stared {At-Tabari 8:506} while Mujahid said, “Carries a better reward.”{At-Tabari 8:506}

-----------------------------

Those that have any intresting links about any other religions, please let me know.

Check up this site if intrested in any form of religions:

http://home.about.com/religion/

there is also a pagan section there...

- red_beef

 

[Crash Nancy]

I believe in an afterlife and that the spirits of those departed can still visit this world and help if asked. They watch over us. In the tradition of my peoples' old beliefs, to show appreciation and express that they are not forgotten, offerings are left to them at either their gravesites or altars dedicated to them in homes. There are also special days to honour the dead, but they are honoured throughout the year.

As a personal experience:
While in Hong Kong, I remember visiting the graves of my grandparents to burn incense, candles, and paper objects (symbolic of goods in the afterlife). My relatives and I also offered food, by placing it near the graves during the ceremony, and wine, by pouring it at the foot of the graves.

To my knowledge, few Chinese people do this here in the graveyards in Canada, but a lot do leave offerings in their homes. I think few people truly believe in the old faiths; I know the large majority of my family does not. Oddly enough, even those who don't believe and whose religions do not include these rituals often still do them, out of tradition perhaps (as this goes back thousands of years).

Wow. Those traditions still exist to this day. I didn't realize that. Mousewings and red_beef, is there a few book titles you would recommend so that I may learn more about these traditions and what the spirits are called upon for?

For those that use ceremonial magic, spirits can be called upon (servitudes); or created (golems). It is also unnecessary to have presence of religion; although some do use gods in rituals. Kind of a calling card. It is strange how two totally different spritual paths can run parallel to one another.

 

[red_beef]

@ Episode666

You can find more about that at the link that I provided above. Oh hell... I just posted a very *censor* long reply... doubt anyone would read it...

Here's are some religions that us Chinese embrace:

Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism constitute the essence of the traditional Chinese culture. The relationship among the three has been marked by both contention and complementation in history, with Confucianism playing a more dominant role.

Confucius (Kongzi, 551-479 B.C.), founder of Confucianism, stresses "Ren" (benevolence, love) and "Li" (rites), referring to respect for the system of social hierarchy. He attaches importance to education and was a pioneering advocate for private schools. He is particularly famous for teaching students according to their intellectual inclinations. His teachings were later recorded by his students in "The Analects."

Mencius also contributed a great part to Confucianism, lived in the Warring States Period (389-305 B.C.), advocating a policy of benign government and a philosophy that human beings are good by nature. Confucianism became the orthodox ideology in feudal China and, in the long course of history, it drew on Taoism and Buddhism. By the 12th century, Confucianism had evolved into a rigid philosophy that calls for preserving heavenly laws and repressing human desires.

Taoism was created by Lao Zi (around the sixth century B.C.), whose masterpiece is "The Classic of the Virtue of the Tao." He believes the dialectical philosophy of inaction. Chairman Mao Zedong once quoted Lao Zi: "Fortune lies in misfortune and vice versa." Zhuang Zhou, the main advocate of Taoism during the Warring States period, founded a relativism calling for the absolute freedom of the subjective mind. Taoism has greatly influenced Chinese thinkers, writers and artists.

Buddhism was created by Sakyamuni in India around the 6th century B.C. Believing that human life is miserable and spiritual emancipation is the highest goal to seek. It was introduced into China through Central Asia around the time Christ was born. After a few centuries of assimilation, Buddhism evolved into many sects in the Sui and Tang Dynasties and became localized. That was also a process when the ingenuous culture of Confucianism and Taoism were blended with Buddhism. Chinese Buddhism has the greatest influence on traditional ideology and art.

About our Funeral customs, here it is:

The burial of the dead (cremation is traditionally uncommon) is a matter taken very seriously in Chinese societies. Improper funeral arrangements can wreak ill fortune and disaster upon the family of the deceased.
To a certain degree, Chinese funeral rites and burial customs are determined by the age of the deceased, the manner of his/her death, his/her status and position in society and his/her marital status.
According to Chinese custom, an older person should not show respect to a younger. Thus, if the deceased is a young bachelor his body cannot be brought home but is left in a funeral parlour. His parents cannot offer prayers for their son: being unmarried he has no children to perform these rites either (hence why the body does not come to the family home). If a baby or child dies no funeral rites are performed, as respect cannot be shown to a younger person: the child is buried in silence.
Funeral rites for an elderly person must follow the prescribed form and convey relevant respect: rites befitting the person’s status, age etc. must be performed even if this means the family of the deceased must go into debt to pay for them.
Preparation for a funeral often begins before death has occurred: if a person is on his/her deathbed a coffin will often have already been ordered by the family. A traditional Chinese coffin is rectangular with three ‘humps’, but it more usual in modern times for a western style coffin to be used. The coffin is provided by an undertaker who oversees all the funeral rites.
When a death occurs in a family all statues of deities in the house are covered with red paper (so as not to be exposed to the body or coffin) and mirrors removed from sight, as it is believed that one who sees the reflection of a coffin in a mirror will shortly have a death in his/her family. A white cloth will be hung across the doorway of the house and a gong placed on the left of the entrance if the deceased is male and right if female.
Before being placed in the coffin, the corpse is cleaned with a damp towel, dusted with talcum powder and dressed in his/her best clothes from his/her own wardrobe (all other clothing of the deceased is burnt and not reused) before being placed on a mat (or hay if on a farm). The body is completely dressed- including footwear, and cosmetics if female- but it is not dressed in red clothes (as this will cause the corpse to become a ghost): white, black, brown or blue are the usual colours used. Before being placed in the coffin the corpse’s face is covered with a yellow cloth and the body with a light blue one.

- red_beef

 

[Crash Nancy]

Thanks everyone for the information! Keep it coming, I am learning a lot from you I'm especially interested in the synchretistic aspect of this form of religion: I think Ben made the message clear in his post, but I'm not sure the "assemblage of interesting bits" applies to everyone. I really really need to understand how come this approach is progressively more widespread, and no, I don't do this to crack jokes either

@Episode666: I wish I could PM you but this connection is so slow that in order to open the PM panel I would have to wait about three thousand years, and possibly my questions would be outdated by then I will try at home. Just one tiny shot now: is there any concept of guilt in any of the possible Pagan interpretations of one's relation with oneself or nature? Sorry if I still appear overgeneralizing, I'm just as ignorant as the next guy. But I appreciate your suggestion that I embrace my bu

The assemblage of interesting bits would qualify as neo-pagan. Embracing the old traditions unaltered would be pagan. Obviously there are some "old ways" that would either not qualify or wouldn't be legal anymore; so I tend to think ALL pagans are neo these days. We're just in denial. Or for the Hermeticists, "De Nile" *rimshot*

About the PM connection: whatever works, darling. I'm reachable via the forum, e-mail or PMs. I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread.

Now your last question: that question again would depend on the Pagan. Paganism has no bible. Paganism has no singular, controlling, jealous Creator/God. Paganism also has no organized means of communication as there are no recognized sects except for some Wiccans - but now we're going into an entirely different branch that is quite out of my league. Guilt? There is no guilt or fear - as pagans do not fear the gods; just honor them and do the bidding and traditions closely. The differences may occur on the singular pagan themselves for personal reasons.

For instance, I have a general fear of angering Eris - the daughter of Chaos, even though she is not in a pantheon that I honor. I find that keeping her existant keeps my spirit balanced. Not that I cower or declare utter resistance to other gods for this reason; it's just that upsetting the daily doings of Eris would upset my Will - or for a better way to say it, in the USA we have a general mantra that says, "When Shit Hits the Fan." Eris's existance is as mundane as it is glorious; and I find that knowing her makes it easier to invoke her when she is needed. Particularly at times when I need to consult with my inner ballsack.

 

[Crash Nancy]

You can find more about that at the link that I provided above. Oh hell... I just posted a very *censor* long reply... doubt anyone would read it...
- red_beef

I'm reading and absorbing both of your long replies. Thanks for the breakdown!

 

[Crash Nancy]

I can't really say about that. Guess it tend to shrink when it goes out of Asian territory. I see this alot when going oversees. Most of them don't even practice their religion tradition when outside Asian. It's more likely that people here in Asian take their religions more seriously when they are inside Asian territory. Lessen when outside. Seem as it's a must when your in your own country.

As for Muslim people here, well I could only say that even that they are born with it. Most of them don't act like one... But I don't think it's only in Islam only because you could see this happen with other religions.

When I think about it, the more advance our world become, the more we see people take it less seriously about their religion.

Enlight me on that if I'm wrong, please.

You're not wrong. From what I understand there are people that do not practice religions here (in the USA) because they do not consider the land Holy. I would like to see a better mix of religions and tolerance thereof. Not to mention more sincerity and purpose to ritual.

 

[hyena]

@everyone: fucking A! congratulations! now this is some culture for me.

@red_beef: what's the meaning of "SAW"? maybe you wrote it down and it escaped me.

@epi: right, on with more questions. you say that pagans do not fear the gods. so they honor them out of gratitude alone or am I mistaken? and what is the relationship between one individual's behavior and the reaction (if any) he or she hypothesizes to it on the part of his or her chosen pantheon?

ah, keep this going... i can't wait til i have time to post a thing or two myself

h

 

[red_beef]

Well, can't blame them for that. In Malaysia & Brunei, they take you to court if you stray from Islam... Don't know what for.

Who idea was it... god knows...

I do see that your somewhat confused with some ritual... mostly. Mixed religions in a country are very hard to get along... Again, I might be wrong about this.

- red_beef