A Question For Pagans
- Thread starter hyena
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Glad to see you're enjoying this as much as I amhyena said:@epi: right, on with more questions. you say that pagans do not fear the gods. so they honor them out of gratitude alone or am I mistaken? and what is the relationship between one individual's behavior and the reaction (if any) he or she hypothesizes to it on the part of his or her chosen pantheon?
ah, keep this going... i can't wait til i have time to post a thing or two myself
h
Special thanks to Mousewings and red_beef for the lessons and enlightenment! Now, for hyena: You have the right idea.
Not out of gratitude alone, but out of purpose, the ability to sustain oneself, and Will. When the purposes of the gods are fulfilled, life can sustain itself without strain. This applies not only to the Earth but to the Life (or "Gaia" ) itself. The relationship between the individual and the gods are the mere difference of evoking and INvoking - haha, just had this conversation earlier. For example, evoking Kali to make someone suffer; as compared to INvoking Kali to do the job yourself. Evoke Athene to pay attention to a situation. INvoke the essence of Athene to resolve the situation yourself. (Disclaimer: do not invoke Kali or Athene for any purpose. 
These are merely examples. Do not invoke anything larger than your ego.)For the Christian that kindly dropped me a PM to remind me how much God loved me; praying for me is an evokation - meaning you're asking God to do your dirty work. Doing the work God commands in the way God would do it is a INvokation. WWJD and all that.
Discuss.
Added for clarity:
The behavior (ritual, prayer, evokation, invokation, spell, etc) would depend on the goals or the desired outcome. OR - for the case of sabbats or esbats, ritual is needed to give the gods existance and sustinace. Reactions vary.
The best answers for this would come from someone that works solely with a singular pantheon in a coven or group-type setting. Eclectics and solitaries have their own methods - some follow traditions closely, some are neo - they feel they can pick and choose. I apologize for sounding so vague in my posts. Paganism is *such* a vast subject and I'm trying to define as best as I can without sounding biased.
Persecution, prosecution, and execution over religion is as old as religion itself; unfortunately.red_beef said:
Please point out where I was confused with rituals so I may be correct in the future.
As for mixing religions in one country: we have the freedom here to explore and worship in any religion we choose; however there is also a freedom of speech to speak against them. It can get pretty hairy at open rituals and public prayer for people that choose religion outside of Christianity or Catholicism here. Some have no problems or complaints at all; some have constant problems. Depends on the area, I suppose. Epi: Could you give me those book titles please?
As for fear/guilt... I give the gods a healthy amount of respect. This is unsurprising, as they are more powerful than me and capable of making my life hell. But no more than that.
As for fear/guilt... I give the gods a healthy amount of respect. This is unsurprising, as they are more powerful than me and capable of making my life hell. But no more than that.
i don't want to spoil the thread, but i never realized how someone could have the need to believe in (a) god(s). in my opinion religion is used to control people; at least this is true for the ones i had a closer look at (major religions). surely there are exceptions, i do not doubt that. but i still can't see whether people still believe if they got no proof at all, no logical explaination. sometimes it seems that in bad times, churches are overcrowded, whereas in good times, noone gives a shit.
religion seems to be something to hold on to, and something to refer to if mankind isn't (yet) able to understand certain happenings.
it's fine for me if someone can even draw power from religion, but it's used in a bad sense way too often. just have a look at mister doublejuh.
religion seems to be something to hold on to, and something to refer to if mankind isn't (yet) able to understand certain happenings.
it's fine for me if someone can even draw power from religion, but it's used in a bad sense way too often. just have a look at mister doublejuh.
Happily. I gathered a small handful that gives some nice, unbiased basics. For specific traditions/paths and methods of practice, that's a *whole* different arena. There is a booklist available online with most of these included as recommended for learning ABOUT the pagan traditions; however it seems to be a walking billboard for Amazon.com, so I'm leaving it out unless it's requested.Wanderingblade said:
Adler, Margot - Drawing Down the Moon
Davidson, Hilda R. Ellis - Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe : Early Scandinavian and Celtic Religions
Russell, Jeffrey B. - A History of Witchcraft : Sorcerers, Heretics, and Pagans
Valiente, Doreen -
Witchcraft for Tomorrow
Natural Magic
An ABC of Witchcraft Past and Present
Hutton, Ronald -
The Triumph of the Moon : A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft
The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles : Their Nature and Legacy
The Stations of the Sun : A History of the Ritual Year in Britain
Owen, Gale R. - Rites and Religions of the Anglo-Saxons
And just for fun...
Frankfurter, David -Religion in Roman Egypt
Hornung, Erik -
Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt : The One and the Many
History of Ancient Egypt : An Introduction
Akhenaten and the Religion of Light
Brier, Bob - [i Daily Life of the Ancient Egyptians [/i]
Cunliffe, Barry - The Ancient Celts
Archer Luxley - A Field Guide to the Gods
What is your tradition, if any? I'm always curious to listen and learn.
But you're willing to try to.VultureCulture said:
Here's the thing about paganism: I am in control. I am the accomplishment of my Wills. I am the creator and destroyer. I am the flux of change. I am the flow of energy. I am the crust, the dust, and the wind the gathers it to a corner or blows it away. I am the reason and cause. I am the purpose and the balance. Change begins with me and ends at my Will. Everything is permitted.
This is my logical explanation to the path I'VE chosen. And I am your exception. The proof I need is the evokation, adherance, and accomplishment of my well-being. The gods do not need to be physical or metaphysical. They need mere existance, if any are chosen at all.
For those that understand, no explanation is necessary. For those that do not, no explanation is possible. Paganism - to the enlightened and educated - is not a controlling or manipulative religion. It's an adherance to a way of *life*.
Please. Do not lump me into your judgements. I'm not a huge fan of manipulative religions myself. Of ANY pantheon.
|ngenius
Little Grasshopper
So, let's use an accurated and precise word to define it: paganism is more an idiosyncratic disposition than a factual religion, according with the last definition. A philosophy to live by. (It is not my opinion, I am in lack of time, but I wanted to put my grain of sand).
|ng.
|ng.
no need to get upset, i spoke for the majority of people and the majority of religions that _i_ know of. sure enough you are one of the exceptions, this can already be seen by the amount of thoughts you give to this topic. the people i mean tend to believe in some religion without knowing much about it. like my grandparents who went to church every day but had no idea why. or like pagans/satanists/wiccans/... (sorry for throwing them all into one pot) who just "believe" because it's different from what they were told by their parents and in school, and want to be cool or smth.
don't misinterpret me, i just speak my mind from my (narrow?) point of view, and you are right, i don't know that much about paganism, so maybe i'm not enlightened. but i don't feel the need to get enlightened either. please don't be offended by that, i never meant to "lump you into my judgements". maybe i'm just too lazy to get into any religion i see fit, maybe i'm too dumb to see the essence of it all, but what i really believe in is that my lifestyle and my mind needs no label, no drawer to be put in, and no people who govern my thoughts. (again, the 3rd does not appeal to all religions).
i guess i won't change anyone in here, as probaply noone will. but it's always entertaining and refreshing to talk about these subjects. i don't want to die stupid
don't misinterpret me, i just speak my mind from my (narrow?) point of view, and you are right, i don't know that much about paganism, so maybe i'm not enlightened. but i don't feel the need to get enlightened either. please don't be offended by that, i never meant to "lump you into my judgements". maybe i'm just too lazy to get into any religion i see fit, maybe i'm too dumb to see the essence of it all, but what i really believe in is that my lifestyle and my mind needs no label, no drawer to be put in, and no people who govern my thoughts. (again, the 3rd does not appeal to all religions).
i guess i won't change anyone in here, as probaply noone will. but it's always entertaining and refreshing to talk about these subjects. i don't want to die stupid
@VultureCulture: I'm not upset, darling. Seems like we both needed to clarify for each other. That's fine; we figured it out.
You are not stupid or un-enlightened by any means, VC. Your reply and clarification alone disproves that theory. I do not expect to shout out my personal faith without having questions or doubts. I accept that. Whether you choose to understand or not means nothing to me. I adore you just the same.
Also: Do not misunderstand my flooding of this thread as an attempt to force *my* religion onto people. It is a subject I am fascinated with as well as a follower thereof. A question was asked; I'm merely following the direction of the discussion.
I *do* respond to "shut up, Epi!" yanno.
You are not stupid or un-enlightened by any means, VC. Your reply and clarification alone disproves that theory. I do not expect to shout out my personal faith without having questions or doubts. I accept that. Whether you choose to understand or not means nothing to me. I adore you just the same.
Also: Do not misunderstand my flooding of this thread as an attempt to force *my* religion onto people. It is a subject I am fascinated with as well as a follower thereof. A question was asked; I'm merely following the direction of the discussion.
I *do* respond to "shut up, Epi!" yanno.
@the commendable theologians, all of them: now this is some discussion. i'm crossing my fingers (typical superstitious and, if prolonged, hurting attitude) and hoping the discussion goes on.
@epi: you made your points pretty clear. i have yet another question: how do the Pagans interpret death of living things?
@|ng: your grain of sand is appreciated. What is your personal stance, if I might ask?
@VC: oh, but one has to believe in sense of humor
h
@epi: you made your points pretty clear. i have yet another question: how do the Pagans interpret death of living things?
@|ng: your grain of sand is appreciated. What is your personal stance, if I might ask?
@VC: oh, but one has to believe in sense of humor
h
@hyena: Auuugh! You just don't ask the easy questions, do you?
"It depends on the tradition" *vague understatement of the thread*
Most believe in reincarnation of some sort; taking a stronger view to "shedding the skin" rather than just dying and leaving what they're familiar with. The snake shedding it's skin is a common symbol associated with pagan funeral rites; with references to "rest and regeneration". As the death of a part of the Earth, death is not taken personally (for example, a god did not choose this person to die); but as a means of benefitting the cycle of birth, death and rebirth - this extends from the soil to the trees to humans themselves. It is commonly accepted that ALL living things must go through some dramatic transformation in order to expound on what they have already been. The circle of life is an ongoing process, and change is welcomed for new opportunities to grow.
Not that anyone cheers death onward - some gather for healing circles to prevent death from happening prematurely. To pray, to ease in passing, to cure; or in my tradition: to convince the chaos that caused the illness that not all fundemental Wills and/or Goals are accomplished. A "Sacred Space" is created for prayer and/or magic to work within; a place where the living and the dying may convene with the gods, if necessary.
In the USA, I am not aware of any pagan burial grounds; as most pagans opt for cremation here. For pagans in any other country I'd be completely unfamiliar with burial grounds and/or practices. If a pagan was involved in a group or coven, the coven may keep the ashes to continue working and communicating with the deceased in ritual or magic. Some wish their ashes to be released and scattered. Some groups perform a "Soul Release" after aquiring the remains prior to cremation, although I'm not quite educated on the process or reasons for that itself if the deceased is already, well.. deceased. It would seem that a release would only be neccessary for the living - as a "wake" for the departed. There are no set rules for the duration of time between death and cremation and/or burial.
Just as life is celebrated, the dead are celebrated as well: a practice quite similar to the Day of the Dead celebrated in Mexico. The day set aside for this purpose is Samhain, or October 31st. Pagans gather to honor not only the gods, the final harvest and the death of Summer, but the deceased from this plane. Feasting, dancing, music, other happy pagan goings are prevalent to this day to welcome the ascent of the darker time of the year; combined with the darker times of our lives. Some groups have tables set with plates and food solely for the deceased; so they may join the celebration.
As for my personal views on death; it will happen when I am finished here. If only I knew when that was.
Hope I'm making sense.
"It depends on the tradition" *vague understatement of the thread*
Most believe in reincarnation of some sort; taking a stronger view to "shedding the skin" rather than just dying and leaving what they're familiar with. The snake shedding it's skin is a common symbol associated with pagan funeral rites; with references to "rest and regeneration". As the death of a part of the Earth, death is not taken personally (for example, a god did not choose this person to die); but as a means of benefitting the cycle of birth, death and rebirth - this extends from the soil to the trees to humans themselves. It is commonly accepted that ALL living things must go through some dramatic transformation in order to expound on what they have already been. The circle of life is an ongoing process, and change is welcomed for new opportunities to grow.
Not that anyone cheers death onward - some gather for healing circles to prevent death from happening prematurely. To pray, to ease in passing, to cure; or in my tradition: to convince the chaos that caused the illness that not all fundemental Wills and/or Goals are accomplished.
A "Sacred Space" is created for prayer and/or magic to work within; a place where the living and the dying may convene with the gods, if necessary.In the USA, I am not aware of any pagan burial grounds; as most pagans opt for cremation here. For pagans in any other country I'd be completely unfamiliar with burial grounds and/or practices. If a pagan was involved in a group or coven, the coven may keep the ashes to continue working and communicating with the deceased in ritual or magic. Some wish their ashes to be released and scattered. Some groups perform a "Soul Release" after aquiring the remains prior to cremation, although I'm not quite educated on the process or reasons for that itself if the deceased is already, well.. deceased. It would seem that a release would only be neccessary for the living - as a "wake" for the departed. There are no set rules for the duration of time between death and cremation and/or burial.
Just as life is celebrated, the dead are celebrated as well: a practice quite similar to the Day of the Dead celebrated in Mexico. The day set aside for this purpose is Samhain, or October 31st. Pagans gather to honor not only the gods, the final harvest and the death of Summer, but the deceased from this plane. Feasting, dancing, music, other happy pagan goings are prevalent to this day to welcome the ascent of the darker time of the year; combined with the darker times of our lives. Some groups have tables set with plates and food solely for the deceased; so they may join the celebration.
As for my personal views on death; it will happen when I am finished here. If only I knew when that was.
Hope I'm making sense.
the last time i was called darling it's been in 5th class by my english teacher. surely, she was a pagan, too *conspiracy!*
Yes, we are *all* out to get you. For what we're going to get you for, that depends on the tradition.
For what we're going to get you for, that depends on the tradition. 
