a sex game stoked by drugs and black magic.- There's a whiff of freedom as Knox await
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It's interesting how both Knox and Sollecito (sp) say the authorities abused them while they were in captivity.
Dead Winter
STAHP
What billions? Ummmm...Italy is not one of the PIGS...that's Ireland. Italy isn't being bailed out.
And Stormo, how long has it been since you've had a government?
They don't hate the tourist industry, they just hate the stupid tourists. It's not Disneyworld. People come here and act like it's some resort or something. No, people live here, people work here, and they have their own style of living. Tourists treat it as if they should bend to their will; hell no. If you want to visit Italy then you should visit Italy and appreciate it for what it has to offer. If what it has to offer doesn't coincide with your proclivities as a tourist, then don't come here. They're not going to change their ways just because you want to have a good time. If you want things to be like your home, then stay at home. I really can't blame them, though. I find myself annoyed with the situation as well, and I've yet to come across a tourist I wanted to help. They come here and insult people to their face, incessantly bitch about this and that, and just complain between the "oooh"s and "aaah"s. They had better be fucking thankful that Italians are such pacifist pussies because if they weren't, there would be some serious asskicking going on. Travel to the US and do the same shit and see how the locals appreciate it there. You'd be lucky if you didn't get your ass kicked. We're not talking critique or criticism, we're talking insults and condescension. Honestly, I think Italy needs to drop from the EU and go back to the lira. It would suck in the short term but in the long run it would be worth it. Nothing like having the value of your money cut in half overnight.
I really love how people say Italians are racist when the entire world is racist against Italians. Why wouldn't they be resentful of it? Why wouldn't they say, "Adapt or GTFO"? The truth of it is they simply don't care what people think. It's not racism, it's ambivalence. They're not hamstrung by political correctness.
That's not to say that things aren't fucked up here as well, but it's just like anywhere. The difference is that it's the touristic gem of Europe so it just gets more attention. You wanna see hateful, racist, egotistical people? Go to France. Or England. Or the US.
You just don't enter into someone's house and start criticizing the wallpaper, and that in a nutshell is why they don't like tourists.
And Stormo, how long has it been since you've had a government?
They don't hate the tourist industry, they just hate the stupid tourists. It's not Disneyworld. People come here and act like it's some resort or something. No, people live here, people work here, and they have their own style of living. Tourists treat it as if they should bend to their will; hell no. If you want to visit Italy then you should visit Italy and appreciate it for what it has to offer. If what it has to offer doesn't coincide with your proclivities as a tourist, then don't come here. They're not going to change their ways just because you want to have a good time. If you want things to be like your home, then stay at home. I really can't blame them, though. I find myself annoyed with the situation as well, and I've yet to come across a tourist I wanted to help. They come here and insult people to their face, incessantly bitch about this and that, and just complain between the "oooh"s and "aaah"s. They had better be fucking thankful that Italians are such pacifist pussies because if they weren't, there would be some serious asskicking going on. Travel to the US and do the same shit and see how the locals appreciate it there. You'd be lucky if you didn't get your ass kicked. We're not talking critique or criticism, we're talking insults and condescension. Honestly, I think Italy needs to drop from the EU and go back to the lira. It would suck in the short term but in the long run it would be worth it. Nothing like having the value of your money cut in half overnight.
I really love how people say Italians are racist when the entire world is racist against Italians. Why wouldn't they be resentful of it? Why wouldn't they say, "Adapt or GTFO"? The truth of it is they simply don't care what people think. It's not racism, it's ambivalence. They're not hamstrung by political correctness.
That's not to say that things aren't fucked up here as well, but it's just like anywhere. The difference is that it's the touristic gem of Europe so it just gets more attention. You wanna see hateful, racist, egotistical people? Go to France. Or England. Or the US.
You just don't enter into someone's house and start criticizing the wallpaper, and that in a nutshell is why they don't like tourists.
Dead Winter
STAHP
Well, that, and they're jealous of our dent-free cars
Maybe in the south. But then again, it IS a shithole. Can't really blame them, however. In a country this size with 60 million people, what do you expect?
El Stormo
Member
Dead Winter
STAHP
I should hope so, with a population of only 11 million. I'm not about to defend anything about the travesty that is the Italian government, but it's apples and oranges. Your infrastructure costs alone pale in comparison.
And again I ask you where is this fiscal finger wagging coming from? Again, Italy isn't being bailed out. Italy just passed austerity measures to combat the crisis, unlike Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and Greece. Italy is holding its hand out to no one. The economy is pretty crap right now, but so is the economy of the sole superpower in the world. I think it's like that all over, wouldn't you agree? Italy is the 8th largest economy in the world and the 4th largest in Europe. They are the 7th largest exporter of goods in the world.
It's expensive to live here because, well, it's Italy. It's one of the most beautiful and historic places in the world and it costs money to get anything done here. You can't build anything here because as soon as you start digging in your backyard, you find a 2000-year-old Roman artifact and it's automatically quarantined and unfit for construction and labeled a historic site. What do you want? Do you want shopping malls or do you want thousand-year-old ruins and cathedrals? Should they just tear down all the history of Rome so tourists can text while driving more easily?
Of course no one wants to replace history with a shopping mall, but in order to keep this place safe and running and livable, it costs money...a LOT of money. It's the price you pay for living in a gorgeous country, and it is a high price.
And again I ask you where is this fiscal finger wagging coming from? Again, Italy isn't being bailed out. Italy just passed austerity measures to combat the crisis, unlike Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and Greece. Italy is holding its hand out to no one. The economy is pretty crap right now, but so is the economy of the sole superpower in the world. I think it's like that all over, wouldn't you agree? Italy is the 8th largest economy in the world and the 4th largest in Europe. They are the 7th largest exporter of goods in the world.
It's expensive to live here because, well, it's Italy. It's one of the most beautiful and historic places in the world and it costs money to get anything done here. You can't build anything here because as soon as you start digging in your backyard, you find a 2000-year-old Roman artifact and it's automatically quarantined and unfit for construction and labeled a historic site. What do you want? Do you want shopping malls or do you want thousand-year-old ruins and cathedrals? Should they just tear down all the history of Rome so tourists can text while driving more easily?
Of course no one wants to replace history with a shopping mall, but in order to keep this place safe and running and livable, it costs money...a LOT of money. It's the price you pay for living in a gorgeous country, and it is a high price.
El Stormo
Member
derek
Grey Eminence
Yep, dude, I meant it tongue in cheek that they need our tourism money, not that they need to be bailed out (yet, anyway).
Don't take umbrage so easily
Don't take umbrage so easily
derek
Grey Eminence
Dead Winter
STAHP
Are you sure about that? Are you saying the English aren't hateful, mean-spirited people? Really? REALLY? Not everyone, of course, but come on, man...the English look down their noses at just about everyone who isn't English.
Dead Winter
STAHP
From your need to take everything so damn seriously
I understood you were joking, but what you don't understand is that you just said verbatim what lots of people say about this place without knowing one iota of the reality, and that's where the don't-let-the-door-hit-you-in-the-ass-on-the-way-out comes from by so many people here.
Again, not saying everything is great and perfect; everyone knows this place needs to overhaul lots of things about it, but most of the bile spewed towards this place is from people who know dick about it.
I don't live in a touristic place so those billions in tourism never reach me. I live in an autonomous region that can tell the government to go fuck themselves if they want to opt out of something, which is probably why it's one of the wealthiest as well. Most people here couldn't care less about the tourism industry and would actually be more than happy to see tourists stop coming so the government can divert some of that money to other things besides placating the fat, obnoxious Americans, the rude and condescending English, and the pissy Germans (THE WORST tourists of them all).
They should hang a sign at the airports: this is Italy and we do things in our own way...if you don't like it, then get back on the plane because it's already too crowded.
We got on the tourist topic but that's not really what the issue originally was about. It was more about the media painting it as this third-world, medieval place like Afghanistan or something. Ironically, while Italians resented the finger-wagging and hypocrisy from the American media, they realized that if more Americans believe it's a terrible place then fewer Americans will travel here. Now everyone is already making jokes about it and laughing it up over all the "boycott Italy" retards and such; they're actually TRYING to instigate more outrage. Their attitude is, "Let them think what they will, and if they think (wrongly) about Italy in this way, then that just means less annoyance for the rest of us." Italy has always wanted to be the little America but now everyone's turned a corner and not even billions is worth the ass pain anymore.
derek
Grey Eminence
Chris, that is a generalisation which does the English a great disservice. It's actually making you guilty of what you accuse people of doing to the Italians.
Besides, it's only Americans they look down upon.
I understand your concern, but the problem is simply one of people not understanding each other, given cultural, historical and linguistic differences. It's not that all German, English and American tourists are terrible, but just different world-views clashing.
Anyway, Stormo's point, I think, was that no-one here is as stupid as to think Italians are all like this or like that, and any comments which seemed that way were mostly meant in jest, and thus you don't need to leap fervently to the defence of anyone, because no insult was really intended.
El Stormo
Member
I'll vouch for English patience and good-will. They're not ethnocentric. Nor are the Italians, or even the French, for that matter. Only we Americans are, because our society wass founded on the embarrassing concept of 'American exceptionalism' and people still take it literally.
Dead Winter
STAHP
You seem to think I'm somehow attacking people's right to think however they want about a different culture, but that couldn't be further from the truth. All I'm saying is not to do it while you're here. Berate and turn up your nose to your heart's content, just don't do it in our house. You get in our way, scoff at learning the language, and piss on just about everything here and then you wonder why no one likes you? You can say whatever you want about this place, just don't come here and say it. It's simple human decency. Again, you don't enter someone's house and then criticize the wallpaper. I'm not happy they're conceited pricks and I wish they weren't. You obviously have never seen it from our point of view, but then again how could you? You're on the other side looking in. It goes without saying that to broad brush an entire nation would be folly, and that's not what I'm doing. I am saying, however, that a very large part of that population IS like that. Why is it so hard to believe? You've never had a problem before lambasting Americans for their ridiculous behavior, so why the English? It's no less true no matter what you want to believe. Americans tend to be annoying and the English tend to be pricks...it's not some revelation because most of Europe already feels the same way. The French are arrogant, the Italians are unorganized, the Germans are rigid, the Americans are obnoxious and the English are pricks. These ARE stereotypes, but they're stereotypes for a reason. I'm not saying England would be a bad place to live (actually I'd like to live there) or that they're BAD people, per se, but they CAN be rather hateful and/or mean-spirited sometimes, that's all. I wouldn't say it had I not seen it.
The difference between what the English do here and your drawing of a parallel to me is that I'm not taking up space in their cities while pissing in their faces. They, along with many other tourists, are doing exactly that here, however. I would have the common courtesy to not spit in their faces while I'm in their country and berate them. They do not seem to have this. This isn't a generalization, this is what I have witnessed over and over and over again. I'm not basing this on a stereotype, I'm basing it on personal experience. The same could be said for all the Italians who have recently moved to London, only that the Italians realize their shortcomings and are actually ashamed of them and want to better themselves, unlike how the English treat us even here in our own country.
It must be said, though, that I've never noticed any problems whatsoever with people from the northern part of England. Liverpool and such. Nice people. As for the rest of the UK, I couldn't ask for more pleasant company.
It could be that I'm American and they automatically hate me for it...WHICH PROVES MY POINT. Derek, you're saying that it's forgivable that they behave as such, as long as they do so towards Americans...and not only Americans but towards Italians as well. Saying people aren't hateful and mean-spirited when they're clearly hateful and mean-spirited towards a specific people is fallacy. That's like saying, "Oh, they're not racist. They just hate black people." I'm sorry, but you're wrong and I call bullshit...and you can't say you were just joking because you and I BOTH know that the majority of England LOATHES Americans, and they act like it's perfectly ok to do so as if it's somehow not as bad as being racist. Just call a spade a spade.
You don't go to England for the cuisine, America for the culture, and Italy for the organization. You go to those places to capitalize on their strengths and enjoy them for what they are. The fact remains that people who are unable to do that need to just stay at home. The bottom line in all of this is, "If you don't like it, you can certainly leave and criticize us from afar, but don't do it here in our home."
The difference between what the English do here and your drawing of a parallel to me is that I'm not taking up space in their cities while pissing in their faces. They, along with many other tourists, are doing exactly that here, however. I would have the common courtesy to not spit in their faces while I'm in their country and berate them. They do not seem to have this. This isn't a generalization, this is what I have witnessed over and over and over again. I'm not basing this on a stereotype, I'm basing it on personal experience. The same could be said for all the Italians who have recently moved to London, only that the Italians realize their shortcomings and are actually ashamed of them and want to better themselves, unlike how the English treat us even here in our own country.
It must be said, though, that I've never noticed any problems whatsoever with people from the northern part of England. Liverpool and such. Nice people. As for the rest of the UK, I couldn't ask for more pleasant company.
It could be that I'm American and they automatically hate me for it...WHICH PROVES MY POINT. Derek, you're saying that it's forgivable that they behave as such, as long as they do so towards Americans...and not only Americans but towards Italians as well. Saying people aren't hateful and mean-spirited when they're clearly hateful and mean-spirited towards a specific people is fallacy. That's like saying, "Oh, they're not racist. They just hate black people." I'm sorry, but you're wrong and I call bullshit...and you can't say you were just joking because you and I BOTH know that the majority of England LOATHES Americans, and they act like it's perfectly ok to do so as if it's somehow not as bad as being racist. Just call a spade a spade.
You don't go to England for the cuisine, America for the culture, and Italy for the organization. You go to those places to capitalize on their strengths and enjoy them for what they are. The fact remains that people who are unable to do that need to just stay at home. The bottom line in all of this is, "If you don't like it, you can certainly leave and criticize us from afar, but don't do it here in our home."
Dead Winter
STAHP
Well, the ones you pay a lot of money for, yes. Expensive cuisine in any country is world-class. The problem is that not everyone can afford to eat world-class cuisine all the time, which is a testament to the UK being on par with the US in obesity rates. It's more about eating habits and less about the food. I shouldn't have said cuisine but instead healthy lifestyle. It's not that the food itself is bad like so many people say, but rather what they tend to do with it.
I'm just a fan of truth and honesty and no exaggeration, that's all. There are those stupid stereotypes that I detest, like when people say they have bad teeth and bad weather and such. It's not even funny anymore, yet people perpetuate the stereotype. I'm not trying to perpetuate anything, just give my account. Maybe I've just been very unlucky in my encounters with them, or maybe (most probably) it's because they had already written me off due to my being American, which speaks more to their shortcomings than mine.
There are still lots of things I admire about them and I will always give credit where credit is due. Maybe they wouldn't afford me the same luxury but that's neither here nor there. I really admire the fact that intellectuals are still held in high regard in their society. I also admire their tenacity and how much importance they place on composure and maturity...for the most part. I can't really blame them for wanting their empire back, but I've never seen a people hold a grudge longer than the English. It borders on pettiness. I've worked with their military before and while there probably wasn't a better bunch of people to work with, their leadership had something to be desired. That's a different story for another time.
It's more sad than anything, actually. Americans don't hold any ill will towards the English whatsoever and actually admire them as well, and we're quite stunned when we discover just how deeply rooted their hatred for us goes. We just don't understand it, and what's more, they can't even tell us why they hate us. They'll give bullshit reasons like how Americans tend to be arrogant and obnoxious, but that's not a reason for an entire country to hate another one. Yet, apparently it's enough for England. We end up more puzzled than offended.
Expensive cuisine in any country is world-class. The problem is that not everyone can afford to eat world-class cuisine all the time, which is a testament to the UK being on par with the US in obesity rates. It's more about eating habits and less about the food. I shouldn't have said cuisine but instead healthy lifestyle. It's not that the food itself is bad like so many people say, but rather what they tend to do with it. I'm just a fan of truth and honesty and no exaggeration, that's all. There are those stupid stereotypes that I detest, like when people say they have bad teeth and bad weather and such. It's not even funny anymore, yet people perpetuate the stereotype. I'm not trying to perpetuate anything, just give my account. Maybe I've just been very unlucky in my encounters with them, or maybe (most probably) it's because they had already written me off due to my being American, which speaks more to their shortcomings than mine.
There are still lots of things I admire about them and I will always give credit where credit is due. Maybe they wouldn't afford me the same luxury but that's neither here nor there. I really admire the fact that intellectuals are still held in high regard in their society. I also admire their tenacity and how much importance they place on composure and maturity...for the most part. I can't really blame them for wanting their empire back, but I've never seen a people hold a grudge longer than the English. It borders on pettiness. I've worked with their military before and while there probably wasn't a better bunch of people to work with, their leadership had something to be desired. That's a different story for another time.
It's more sad than anything, actually. Americans don't hold any ill will towards the English whatsoever and actually admire them as well, and we're quite stunned when we discover just how deeply rooted their hatred for us goes. We just don't understand it, and what's more, they can't even tell us why they hate us. They'll give bullshit reasons like how Americans tend to be arrogant and obnoxious, but that's not a reason for an entire country to hate another one. Yet, apparently it's enough for England. We end up more puzzled than offended.
Liverslapper
w00t
Chris, your hate towards people outside of your land is really sad. I do hope that if we meet one day, you don't think I am fat, obnoxious, egotistical, hateful, racist and a shit talker. From everything I've read, you have had nothing but hate toward countries outside of where you live. You took what started off as a thread about the Knox case to a hateful, self-centered rant about how England, Ireland, Americans are annoying trash. Really Chris? Really? Breaking news, your shit stinks just as bad as everyone around you and that is just how it will be. You are generalizing everyone into this category of selfishness, hatred and annoyance. Why can't you be amicable? Have you been mistreated by everyone around you so bad that you have to act this way? You sound like someone from each nationality has, by force, come into your home and beat you with tree branch. I am part Italian Chris, and what you are saying is so negative it is shameful.
We get it, and you have done this more than once on this forum. You can't stand Americans and other nations and yet you keep bringing it up.
*hands Chris an American Beer*
Chill out.
We get it, and you have done this more than once on this forum. You can't stand Americans and other nations and yet you keep bringing it up.
*hands Chris an American Beer*
Chill out.
craptastic
Member
This.
Reeks bigotry without using slurs.
If you dislike 'tourists' this incredibly bad, you should look in the mirror. Something about your thought process is misfiring. Tourists was just a cover for your undeniable racism dude.
I live in an area where tourism fuels nearly 100% of the local economy. Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of tourists either, but it has NOTHING to do with where they are from or their nationality. I'm not a big fan ofthe majority of the locals, again has nothing to do with race.
~Lynn~
Bah...
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