Achieving clear well defined low end.

[johnjm22]

Ok, so this seems to be my biggest problem as an engineer. My records are fairly comparable to major label recordings....in most systems. But it seems like whenever I listen to my mixes in overly "bassed" car systems, the low end in my recordings just nevers sounds as clear, or defined as that of major label recordings.

I'm just curious to hear how some of the other engineers on here go about dialing in the lowend.

I find the biggest challenge of mixing bass is getting a good balance where the bass line can be heard in normal systems, but not be too loud in systems with ridiculous amounts of bass. It's never just a simple matter of turning the volume up or down.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[Ermz]

I have the exact same problem.

I think if you were to post some examples, people here would have a better basis from which to help you.

 

[scorpio01169]

compress your bass track on mixdown

 

[metalkingdom]

I find the biggest challenge of mixing bass is getting a good balance where the bass line can be heard in normal systems, but not be too loud in systems with ridiculous amounts of bass. It's never just a simple matter of turning the volume up or down.

This is one of the hardest parts of mixing, and one of those things that separates the pros from the amateurs. A flat mix is what you need to strive for, and low end control is a huge part of achieving that. Here are a couple of tips that can help you get there -

1) Instead of boosting the lows, try using cuts instead. 50Hz is good place to cut a few db's. Car stereo speakers don't like 50Hz.

2) Don't let the bass and kick occupy too much of the same freq ranges. I personally cut the hell out of the mids on bass and the kick will fill the void quite nicely...and the combination makes for a huge sound.

3) Remember that your bass fundamentals are 200Hz and 400Hz and eq applied in those areas (and the divisors as well - 50Hz,100Hz,800Hz, 1.6k) will have a more dramatic/audible effect on the bass.

Once you get the lows locked in and general compression mastered (especially on vox) then the clients will be lining up at your door.

 

[johnjm22]

I have the exact same problem.

I think if you were to post some examples, people here would have a better basis from which to help you.

Ok here's a project I'm working on right now. It's not really metal though, more just straight up rock type stuff. And this probably isn't the best example considering the bass line mirrors the guitars for a good portion of the song, but it's the only thing I have up right now.

http://www.chrysalismusic.net/audio/Inner_Torment.mp3

I listened to this track the other day in my friends car system and sure enough it has too much bass. But despite the fact the bass is too loud, it still can't be hear in most systems

 

[metalkingdom]

Dude - that sounds like it's not mixed at all.... You got a ways to go before worrying about the low end.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

You gotta love metalkingdom's bluntness!

 

[Razorjack]

What are you using to monitor you mixes?

 

[metalkingdom]

You gotta love metalkingdom's bluntness!

Well, it's true. Being honest is a lot more helpful than being nice.

Besides...I gave him some pretty major advice on low end mixing out of the goodness of my heart.

 

[stringy_]

There is nothing I hate more than shitty, low-end, consumer grade sound systems. The excuses for "subwoofers" emphasize shit around 150Hz and will make ANYTHING sound horrible.

Don't get me started on kids and their car sound systems...I'll go on forever.

How can people listen to music that way?!

 

[metalkingdom]

Like it or not, nearly everyone listens to music on "consumer grade sound systems". If your sub is emphasizing 150Hz, you may wanna check out a crossover.

I went to check out a nice system for my truck one time and the song that they were using for demo was a song that I mixed! Very flattering.

 

[johnjm22]

Dude - that sounds like it's not mixed at all.... You got a ways to go before worrying about the low end.

Ouch. Could you elaborate?

 

[stringy_]

Like it or not, nearly everyone listens to music on "consumer grade sound systems". If your sub is emphasizing 150Hz, you may wanna check out a crossover.

I went to check out a nice system for my truck one time and the song that they were using for demo was a song that I mixed! Very flattering.

I'm not an audiophile, if it sounds decent I'll use it...but 90% of the lower-mid level home theater systems, car subwoofers, multimedia speakers etc. etc. sound like complete ass. They're directed at peeps who think more bass=better quality. Consequently their subs are pushing a few lower mids to make them seem louder.

Then you have to take into account that the guy who bought them doesn't know how to use the EQs and emphasizes MORE bass.

I'm not going to sit here and say that everything has to be played on pro-quality studio monitors, but holy hell...I don't know how people can tolerate those things.

Oh well.

 

[dontletmedrown]

Ouch. Could you elaborate?

It just sounds very "lite". Not a very powerful mix IMO, but not so much because of the lack of low end, it's because of the way you've chosen to mix it. I think you can make this mix a lot better just by moving the volume faders. IMO, your Bass guitar tone is where the low end is lacking. Did you cut the low end on it with an EQ? The drums sound very weak. Also, the drums are not very ambient, so the triggering ends up sounding a bit fake. Putting some mild compression on your mix bus can give it more of that pumping metal sound. Guitar seems like you've boosted the highs-- if not, maybe you need to aim your mic further off axis from the dust cap. My main gripes are that the guitar and vocals are both too loud.

Did I elaborate too much?

Trying to be helpful and not rude.

Best of luck

 

[johnjm22]

What are you using to monitor you mixes?

M-Audio BX8's

 

[johnjm22]

It just sounds very "lite". Not a very powerful mix IMO, but not so much because of the lack of low end, it's because of the way you've chosen to mix it. I think you can make this mix a lot better just by moving the volume faders. IMO, your Bass guitar tone is where the low end is lacking. Did you cut the low end on it with an EQ?

Like I mentioned in my original post, it has too much bass. That's part of the problem.

When I put it in bass heavy car stereos it overwhelms them with low-end mud. I did some A/B comparisons with other recordings to make sure it wasn't the system.

The drums sound very weak. Also, the drums are not very ambient, so the triggering ends up sounding a bit fake.

There is a compressed room mic in the mix. Also, the toms and snare have a plate verb on them. The ambience is subtle, but the drummer wants a Deftones "Around the Fur" type sound.

Putting some mild compression on your mix bus can give it more of that pumping metal sound.

The whole mix is going through a limiter (Massey L2007). I don't like over compression on the stereo buss. I tried to get similar levels to the "Black Album."

Guitar seems like you've boosted the highs-- if not, maybe you need to aim your mic further off axis from the dust cap.

Yeah they seem to have a bit too much treble. I already cut the highs a little bit, perhaps I'll cut some more.

My main gripes are that the guitar and vocals are both too loud.

I can't agree with you there.

Did I elaborate too much?

No, thanks for the reply.

 

[Ermz]

I'd have to agree with metalkingdom, mate.

My main gripe is that the guitars are extremely weak sounding. This is what I'd expect to get by mic'ing a 20watt combo.

Your main low-end problem is coming from your kick being too dominant in the low-end. You need to scoop around 120Hz from it. Let the focus of its low end come from sub-100Hz frequencies.

The bass guitar sounds like its sole purpose is to add mud to the track. Usually the frequencies that add to this are anywhere from 120 to 200Hz. Those ranges need to be controlled.

I dont think its so much the guitars and vocals being too loud, but rather not mixed well into the track. I mean it just sounds like a rough demo at the moment. The individual elements don't sound glued into that 'wall of sound' that defines your typical album-quality production.

I don't mean any offense, but if this mix is meant to be indicative of being fairly comparable to major label releases, you may want to look into a new set of monitors, or perhaps treating the room that you are mixing in.

 

[moose209]

It is very interesting to read peoples views on this. Bottom end to me defines everything. It is the foundations upon which therest of the wave is shaped at anyone time...does that make sense?

My experiements in music suggest that in order to achieve real tight defined bottom end, nothing should be going on down there apart from what needs to be going on down there. So guitars should not extend below 100hz, nor snare nor anything apart from bass and guitar. I agree with cutting the mud below too, whether with a filter or a shelf is very much dependant upon the eq being used. I find the same is the same for top end too, only have a few elements up there, or down there as the case may be. Also if you have tight short kicks, as it is a short impulse it will have trouble sticking out if the bass is at a similar volume.

Its is very hard to get right, in my opinion, and I am still trying.