Acoustic Drums for Metal: A Guide
- Thread starter Glenn Fricker
- Start date
Noumenon
Obsidian Productions
Am I goin OT here if I ask if there's a new chapter on its way?
If that's the case...
Oz: new chapter soon?
If that's the case...
Oz: new chapter soon?
Hopefully sometime after next weekend. I spent Christmas working on a two song demo (hence, I had time to write) & now I'm booked till November. I apologise for the delay, but when it rains it pours!
EdwardPayne
Member
~BURNY~ said:
I dunno if anyone asked this, but can I do the same if the kit has two base drums?
Looking at the picture i think a different setup is needed.
I'm pretty sure if you have two kicks (making the kit is more symmetrical), the centre line can pretty much run straight down the middle of the kit, between the bass drums. Then you just need to adjust it slightly to suit your set up.
Steve
Steve
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
MX582
Member
Frank'nfurter
Thrash till death
greyskull said:
Old hat! tried that years ago. Not bad but for Blumlein you will need two good 8-figure mics. Pricey!
I prefer ORTF or NOS
Noumenon
Obsidian Productions
PART 4.5 - Revisions & Ammendments
"Even when you know it all, try to learn something new everyday." Chip Foose, Overhaulin'
Alright, alright, I get it. This has been really, really overdue. What can I say? I've been learning all kinds of shit from this thread too! Suffice it to say, I've been putting many of the ideas presented on here into action on client projects, & the results have been stunning.... And, more importantly, the clients are really, really digging it. Case in point: It's June 1st, and I've got 3 full length albums to do between now and January 2007. It's gonna be a busy second half of '06.
So, where to start? There's three major points I've worked on between the last installment & this one. So, we'll start at the beginning.
#1) Overheads. I was a die hard X/Y kinda guy until James Murphy called me out on this one. As already discussed in great detail, the spaced pair method has some serious advantages over XY. Especially when you get into massive low end rolloff & sidechaining, which will be covered in part 5: Mixing.
Just to recap, with a double kick setup, it's pretty obvious where to put the spaced pair. Make a mirror image of the kit with the snare in the center & you're good to go. Observe the 3:1 rule:If one mic is one foot from an instrument, the other has to be a minimum of three, thereby creating a -6db drop in level, thereby minimising phase issues. (I hope I got that right, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Bottom line: put some space between those fuckers!)
With a single kick setup, it's a little bit different. We want to keep the mic levels matched, and still have the snare in the center. Somone was kind enough to point out this little piece of genius:
And, I must say, it works like a charm. The only caution is that some drummers don't like to spread thier cymbals out too far, so make sure you have your cattle prod or can of pepper spray handy to convince the drummer to see things your way. If they're not spread out correctly, you could wind up with your cymbals over to one side. This applies to the ride as well, depending on what side of the bell the drummer is hitting. The cool thing is, if you tweak things out a bit, you can actually use the rack toms to hide the ride bell from the right side mic!
Here's a couple of pics of the spaced pair/single kick setup in action:
This is my bud, T.J. (he keeps telling me it means "tit juggler") who's currently in with one of his groups. This guy used to have the nastiest attack on the cymbals, but after a year of hard work, he's improved massivley. Don't ever be afraid to be honest with a drummer. He'll appreciate it in the end.
We found his ride was winding up in the right mic a little too much. Moving the ride forward by about a half inch put it in direct line with rack tom #2, therby hiding it from the right overhead. We also spaced out his crashes a little farther than he normally plays, but it paid off in spades.
Here's an example of the spaced pair sound. Personally, I couldn't be happier with it!
http://www.spectresound.ca/drum%20article/fsnight.mp3
Here's another pic of the single kick, spaced pair method. This was for a pop punk project I did just before TJ's band... I would have preferred to have the crashes spread out a little more, but the drummer just couldn't get into it. Oh well, I made sure TJ suffered for this guy's mistake.
#2) Front head on the kick. Once again, this is Mr. Murphy's doing. What can I say? The guy gives great advice. I only recorded single skin kicks for years & years. Finally, I got around to putting the front head back on, and it's been pretty cool. There are many benefits to this method: Less bleed, more "bounce back" from the batter head (which will make drummers less bitchy) and the ability to double mic the kick from the inside & outside. The benefit of this is simple: The inner mic picks up the attack, while the outer mic picks up the boom. Run these two to individual tracks & all of a sudden, you have a very cool "slideable EQ" for your kick in the mix. You can also look into the Yamaha sub-kick as a substitute for an outside mic. Make sure to play around with placement of the inner & outer mics. And above all, check phase to make sure they're working together!
You can do some pretty cool things with the outside mic as well. Rolloff the highs & add a bass enhancement plugin for some real ka-boom. This always impresses the drummers. Don't go too low though, leave some room for the bass guitar.
One other thing I've noticed: When a front head is present, the attack on the kick drum moves down from the 10K region to about the 8k region, making life eaiser when it comes time to mix. I highly recommend this approach.
3) Often overlooked, but really, really, goddamn important: Impedance. If you're using an sm57 or an i5 on the snare, check up on your mic pre's specs and see what kind of impedance load it's creating on the mic. To be brief: Some dynamic mics do NOT like high impedance preamps!!! Guess what: The 57 doesn't, and to a lesser extent, neither does the i5. (if you're using e604's on the toms, not to worry, they love high impedance) Now, I'm trying to keep this simple, so try to follow me: I'm using a Great River MP2NV on my snare mic. Thankfully, it has switchable impedance: 300 ohms & 1300 ohms. It defaults at 1300. After much experimentation, take my word for it: With an sm57, the diffference is NOT subtle. Most low cost preamps have fairly high impedance. (I'm generalizing here) From what I've read on the subject (There is an FANTASTIC article in the last month's issue of RECORDING by Paul J. Stamler on the subject of 57's & too much impedance) when the 57 it put to a high impedance load, the element is not properly restricted. Meaning it physically moves too much. Meaning you get too much exteme bottom & a brittle top. Switching the impedance on the Great River pre was like breathing new life into my 57. Holey crap, what a difference. Two theories on this subject: 1) This is why Neve preamps are so popular. They're 600 ohms (someone correct me here if I'm wrong) so the venerable workhorse sm57 is going to sound much nicer on one of these than say, a Mackie XDR which is 1300 ohms.
2) This is one of the reasons why so many people hated digital when it came out. Digital plays back what you put into it. Whereas anaolog tends to smear things, I'm guessing some of the digital 'harshenss' some engineers were hearing was the result of thier own stupidity regarding impedance loads. Hell, I've been recording to digital for years & I only just figured it out!
Fortunatley, having switchable impedance settings on your preamps these days doesn't mean you have to break the bank.
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/index.html Here's an 8 channel Mackie Onyx. Channels 1&2 have switchable impedance. I think it goes for about $1k USD. Not bad for 8 pres! That's almost enough to to a full kit.
Alright, that's it for now. I'll put part 5 up as soon as I can get to it. It's gonna be a big one, so be patient.
Meanwhile, I offer this: Proof positive that drummers should never play with power tools or firearms:
This was an excerpt from a photo shoot I was doing for a client's band. Somehow, I don't think this will wind up on the album cover!
Till next time,
-0z-
"Even when you know it all, try to learn something new everyday." Chip Foose, Overhaulin'
Alright, alright, I get it. This has been really, really overdue. What can I say? I've been learning all kinds of shit from this thread too! Suffice it to say, I've been putting many of the ideas presented on here into action on client projects, & the results have been stunning.... And, more importantly, the clients are really, really digging it. Case in point: It's June 1st, and I've got 3 full length albums to do between now and January 2007. It's gonna be a busy second half of '06.
So, where to start? There's three major points I've worked on between the last installment & this one. So, we'll start at the beginning.
#1) Overheads. I was a die hard X/Y kinda guy until James Murphy called me out on this one. As already discussed in great detail, the spaced pair method has some serious advantages over XY. Especially when you get into massive low end rolloff & sidechaining, which will be covered in part 5: Mixing.
Just to recap, with a double kick setup, it's pretty obvious where to put the spaced pair. Make a mirror image of the kit with the snare in the center & you're good to go. Observe the 3:1 rule:If one mic is one foot from an instrument, the other has to be a minimum of three, thereby creating a -6db drop in level, thereby minimising phase issues. (I hope I got that right, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Bottom line: put some space between those fuckers!)
With a single kick setup, it's a little bit different. We want to keep the mic levels matched, and still have the snare in the center. Somone was kind enough to point out this little piece of genius:
And, I must say, it works like a charm. The only caution is that some drummers don't like to spread thier cymbals out too far, so make sure you have your cattle prod or can of pepper spray handy to convince the drummer to see things your way. If they're not spread out correctly, you could wind up with your cymbals over to one side. This applies to the ride as well, depending on what side of the bell the drummer is hitting. The cool thing is, if you tweak things out a bit, you can actually use the rack toms to hide the ride bell from the right side mic!
Here's a couple of pics of the spaced pair/single kick setup in action:
This is my bud, T.J. (he keeps telling me it means "tit juggler") who's currently in with one of his groups. This guy used to have the nastiest attack on the cymbals, but after a year of hard work, he's improved massivley. Don't ever be afraid to be honest with a drummer. He'll appreciate it in the end.
We found his ride was winding up in the right mic a little too much. Moving the ride forward by about a half inch put it in direct line with rack tom #2, therby hiding it from the right overhead. We also spaced out his crashes a little farther than he normally plays, but it paid off in spades.
Here's an example of the spaced pair sound. Personally, I couldn't be happier with it!
http://www.spectresound.ca/drum%20article/fsnight.mp3
Here's another pic of the single kick, spaced pair method. This was for a pop punk project I did just before TJ's band... I would have preferred to have the crashes spread out a little more, but the drummer just couldn't get into it. Oh well, I made sure TJ suffered for this guy's mistake.
#2) Front head on the kick. Once again, this is Mr. Murphy's doing. What can I say? The guy gives great advice. I only recorded single skin kicks for years & years. Finally, I got around to putting the front head back on, and it's been pretty cool. There are many benefits to this method: Less bleed, more "bounce back" from the batter head (which will make drummers less bitchy) and the ability to double mic the kick from the inside & outside. The benefit of this is simple: The inner mic picks up the attack, while the outer mic picks up the boom. Run these two to individual tracks & all of a sudden, you have a very cool "slideable EQ" for your kick in the mix. You can also look into the Yamaha sub-kick as a substitute for an outside mic. Make sure to play around with placement of the inner & outer mics. And above all, check phase to make sure they're working together!
You can do some pretty cool things with the outside mic as well. Rolloff the highs & add a bass enhancement plugin for some real ka-boom. This always impresses the drummers. Don't go too low though, leave some room for the bass guitar.
One other thing I've noticed: When a front head is present, the attack on the kick drum moves down from the 10K region to about the 8k region, making life eaiser when it comes time to mix. I highly recommend this approach.
3) Often overlooked, but really, really, goddamn important: Impedance. If you're using an sm57 or an i5 on the snare, check up on your mic pre's specs and see what kind of impedance load it's creating on the mic. To be brief: Some dynamic mics do NOT like high impedance preamps!!! Guess what: The 57 doesn't, and to a lesser extent, neither does the i5. (if you're using e604's on the toms, not to worry, they love high impedance) Now, I'm trying to keep this simple, so try to follow me: I'm using a Great River MP2NV on my snare mic. Thankfully, it has switchable impedance: 300 ohms & 1300 ohms. It defaults at 1300. After much experimentation, take my word for it: With an sm57, the diffference is NOT subtle. Most low cost preamps have fairly high impedance. (I'm generalizing here) From what I've read on the subject (There is an FANTASTIC article in the last month's issue of RECORDING by Paul J. Stamler on the subject of 57's & too much impedance) when the 57 it put to a high impedance load, the element is not properly restricted. Meaning it physically moves too much. Meaning you get too much exteme bottom & a brittle top. Switching the impedance on the Great River pre was like breathing new life into my 57. Holey crap, what a difference. Two theories on this subject: 1) This is why Neve preamps are so popular. They're 600 ohms (someone correct me here if I'm wrong) so the venerable workhorse sm57 is going to sound much nicer on one of these than say, a Mackie XDR which is 1300 ohms.
2) This is one of the reasons why so many people hated digital when it came out. Digital plays back what you put into it. Whereas anaolog tends to smear things, I'm guessing some of the digital 'harshenss' some engineers were hearing was the result of thier own stupidity regarding impedance loads. Hell, I've been recording to digital for years & I only just figured it out!
Fortunatley, having switchable impedance settings on your preamps these days doesn't mean you have to break the bank.
http://www.mackie.com/products/800r/index.html Here's an 8 channel Mackie Onyx. Channels 1&2 have switchable impedance. I think it goes for about $1k USD. Not bad for 8 pres! That's almost enough to to a full kit.
Alright, that's it for now. I'll put part 5 up as soon as I can get to it. It's gonna be a big one, so be patient.
Meanwhile, I offer this: Proof positive that drummers should never play with power tools or firearms:
This was an excerpt from a photo shoot I was doing for a client's band. Somehow, I don't think this will wind up on the album cover!
Till next time,
-0z-
Gnash
Lefty
dreamcatcher
Raising the Knife
dreamcatcher said:
Only about 4 inches. We calculated it out with a really ugly algerbraic formula that it's absorbing in the 200hz region. I'm very happy with it.
-0z-
Seizure.
Member
My SPL Goldmike has an Input Impedance of 1.8 Kohm... so in combination with a SM57, thats good right?
flhctroll
Member
Is there any way to change the preamp ohmage? It seems like it should be and easy thing to do. It says my mackie has got 1500 and this little Behringer 2 mic mixer I picked up has 2600. Any ideas?
madbutcher
Member
I might be the only one here who has never used a XY technique....always have done a spaced pair with LDC...always C12's. I've tried once with a couple KM184's but didn't like them as much. I'd like to have a piar of 414's to try it with though, I love the way that mic sounds on cymbals, but I've only ever had 1 at my disposal so I always used it as a ride mic, or on my altest recording I used it as a center overhead.
Now hurry up and get to part 5.....I'm mixing right now and want to see what you have to say on it.
Now hurry up and get to part 5.....I'm mixing right now and want to see what you have to say on it.
Noumenon
Obsidian Productions
flhctroll said:
Yes, is there?
Just looked at the great river preamp. the two channel costs like $2000 and the single one $1000. Not really into the idea of buying a preamp for that right now
There is a cheaper solution. Paul J. Stamler called it his "gizmo" which is a little inline doo-dad that will lower the impedance. Go look for the May 2006 (I think that's the issue) RECORDING magazine for the plans.
