Acoustic Drums for Metal: A Guide

Turning the wave 'upside-down' reverses its condition at the origin, so you are in fact flipping the phase. Calling it a phase switch, then, is perfectly acceptable, as you're doing the same thing - changing the initial conditions and flipping the polarity are effectively the same thing.

Jeff
 
JBroll said:
Turning the wave 'upside-down' reverses its condition at the origin, so you are in fact flipping the phase. Calling it a phase switch, then, is perfectly acceptable, as you're doing the same thing - changing the initial conditions and flipping the polarity are effectively the same thing.

Jeff
Click to expand...

well, i couldn't quite find the right words to explain this, so i found this article.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=91427
 
Okay, you're using fucking Musician's Friend to argue with the actual mathematical terms for sinusoidals? Fail.

They can say phase changes are offsets by time, and that's a very bizarre (and misleading) way of looking at it. It's really the other way around, especially considering (in the typical AE mindset and resulting abuse of language) that with a lot of 'phase problems' no amount of shifting back and forth can rectify the problem.

The examples they gave are sine waves... and in those cases, they're right and wrong at the same time. However when you have something that can't be modeled just as a finite sum of sine waves (like ANY SOUND ANYTHING MAKES EVER, for instance) you're going to look at phase as the "wave"'s starting condition, so what they're saying is misleading at best.

Unless you're going to talk math, which is what this discussion actually is, you're going to have problems putting any point across. Honestly, chances are that if your science and math education came from Musician's Friend, or any music source for that matter, you're at best half-right on most real details.

Change of polarity in a sine wave means a 180* phase change; in a sum of sine waves it's a phase change that corresponds to basically every wave being turned upside down.

The MF article (sadly, like most audio mathematics and science articles) at best shows that sometimes AEs mean things that aren't what they say, if they even really know what they're talking about at all.

Long story short... JBroll has this annoying tendency to be right and MF has this annoying tendency to be full of shit.

Jeff
 
Hey, since you're new I'm just going to let you know that you can't argue with JBroll. Even if you're right (now I'm not going to say that you are since I know it's pointless to argue with him), he will just write a post that is too long for anyone to actually read which usually ends up as the last post of the thread since no one will actually read it.

Just a joke.

But seriously in audio a lot of times adjusting the phase on drums tracks (since that is what we're talking about in this thread) can just mean time aligning the transients in the track to each other and you won't always be able to do this by flipping the phase 180 degrees. For example, a snare track might be a few ms behind the transient in the overhead tracks. I think Oz even talks about this earlier in the thread.
 
He has gone over that transient alignment stuff earlier, unless it's in another thread and I'm just being a silly panda.

Also, if you are right about something I argue, I'll admit to it and fix whatever I've done wrong before... but when it comes to math, I just win.

Jeff
 
I'd like to see what levels ppl use for tracking. I have never tracked drums (yet) and was wondering what input level everyone uses. I was thinking about tracking at around -6, is that ok or do you need to be higher (or lower) ?
 
Right, it was just a joke. =D

But, yeah using MF to try to prove some shit is pretty funny in itself though. I don't know about lately, but I remember sitting on hold and listening to their "tech tips" or some bullshit and I remember it being pretty funny.
 
carvedones said:
I'd like to see what levels ppl use for tracking. I have never tracked drums (yet) and was wondering what input level everyone uses. I was thinking about tracking at around -6, is that ok or do you need to be higher (or lower) ?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a good starting point. Just to be safe, maybe have the drummer play a chorus or something which is usually the loudest part of the song and make sure you're not clipping. Sometimes I'll adjust stuff a little bit lower after doing this just to be safe.
 
HexTheNet said:
Hey, since you're new I'm just going to let you know that you can't argue with JBroll. Even if you're right (now I'm not going to say that you are since I know it's pointless to argue with him), he will just write a post that is too long for anyone to actually read which usually ends up as the last post of the thread since no one will actually read it.
Click to expand...
LMAO!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
Hi guys,
:worship: This has to be the best thread I have read ever.:worship:
Lots of knowledge and opinions that I just ain't come across anywhere else.

I'm recording my own band soon for a promo e.p. and we want as mint quality as possible on our budget. We're getting a studio for as many days as it takes for around £60 -
£80 per song(one time only special 'we're friends with the owner' deal). My dilemma is that I've never been in charge of a whole project before and so many things are bound to go wrong(I like having hair so I hope you guys can help a little).

Our drum session is booked we have four days(five if needed) to prep the studio, set everything up, and do 5 tracks. I'm planning to trigger the kick and snare, purely because with my lack of experience I don't want these key elements to be utter shite. I'll be using md421s over the toms and a pair of sE1a's(not matched - is this any problem?) for overheads. I'll be using the studios own hi-hat mic(not sure what it is) even if it's just for what OzNimbus said about forcing me(yep I am the drummer) to not hit the hats to buggery whilst tracking.

Do you guys see any obvious "whoa thar, you don't wanna do that, boy!!" issues with how I'm planning to do the drum session??
Any suggestions, anti-noob comments or offers to record us instead at the same price(hehe) are welcome.

Thanks In Advance(this be my first proper post on any forum ever, so if I screwed up and broke some forum rules I apologise profusely!)

one last thing the first CD I mixed for us is up on the myspace linked to my profile. the player doesn't do it full justice but we want to blow it away in the clarity and heaviness stakes.:headbang:
 
mic the kick & snare as well as trigger. You never know, it might turn out good. Always err on the side of caution. That & see if the studio has a matched pair of SD condensors for your OH.
 
OzNimbus said:
mic the kick & snare as well as trigger. You never know, it might turn out good. Always err on the side of caution. That & see if the studio has a matched pair of SD condensors for your OH.
Click to expand...

Thanks Oz

I was half thinking about backing up the kick and snare triggers and now you have said it too it makes total sense.

noob question: what are SD condensors?

I noticed that you've been playing with the OH setup a fair bit, If I do have to take the trigger route, what's the best way(probably blindingly obvious) that I could minimise the kick and snare bleed so as not to colour my "good" kick and snare

Also I literally seconds ago reposted my er... post in the productions tips section just wanted you to know I wasn't trying to flood the forum. Should I delete one of them?
 
Mewle said:
Thanks Oz

I was half thinking about backing up the kick and snare triggers and now you have said it too it makes total sense.

noob question: what are SD condensors?

I noticed that you've been playing with the OH setup a fair bit, If I do have to take the trigger route, what's the best way(probably blindingly obvious) that I could minimise the kick and snare bleed so as not to colour my "good" kick and snare

Also I literally seconds ago reposted my er... post in the productions tips section just wanted you to know I wasn't trying to flood the forum. Should I delete one of them?
Click to expand...

Small Diaphragm

You're going to get kick & snare bleed in them regardless. Rolloff the OH from 600hz & sidechain the snare to stomp on it in the overheads. Should do ya fine.









Now go search what "sidechaining" is. :rolleyes:
 
OzNimbus said:
Small Diaphragm

You're going to get kick & snare bleed in them regardless. Rolloff the OH from 600hz & sidechain the snare to stomp on it in the overheads. Should do ya fine.

Now go search what "sidechaining" is. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...



I see so when the snare hits, the overheads get quieter? and I presume I can choose/adjust the frequency range that I want to be affected on the OH channel so it doesn't suck out any(or too much) of the higher end??

I still can't believe I didn't find this forum sooner, I've gained more in a few days of reading this, than the previous weeks on end of googling and libraries(the one here smells).:yuk:

The sE1a's are SD condensors, but what benefits do matched pairs give? Is it their freq response that's identical and would the differences in unmatched pairs of exactly the same mic be big enough to hurt the mix?
 
I have a digital Korg MK1600 that only have 4 xlr inputs and 4 line inputs.Is it enough to just get the kick, snare and OH to get a great metal drum track?

Im using sm57 for the snare in channel 1, 2 trigger mics for both of my kick drums, tht goes thru the line input in channel 2; and the other 2 channels are for my overheads, which i use Samson condenser mic.

The trigger mics were then replace/layered thru Session Drummer 2 in Sonar7 Producer Edition. The kick so far is ok, and also the snare is working fine after a long time of tweaking 'em.

Im just not satisfied with the overheads. They sounded 'airy' just like a live set in a big hall. my room is small. how can i fix this problm??

And so far i havent found that death metal sound i'm still learning to get. Can anybody teach me how to get that brutal Deicide sound? or perhaps something like Vital Remains?
\m/
 
the condenser mics r Samson CO2. The way i set it up is just like wat most people did. I set it sumwher above hihat and above the ride, so dat it sound kinda like stereo. It doesnt sound right to me though during the mixdown. I might try the xy pattern thing later dis afternoon. Need to do this fast before recording schedule starts. thnx for ur reply mate
 
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