amp sims-- lack of punchiness?

[schnykeees]

Due to my lack of $$$, I don't have the guitar or amp collection that I'd like for my production purposes. I have a PRS Single Cut and I have a couple of amp emulators/amp sims. This is what I use for 99% of my guitar work.

I go through a DI to my Rosetta 800 which connects ADAT to my 003. Actually, that doesn't matter because no matter what signal chain I record guitars through the result is still the same. Super squashed sounding guitars. No dynamics at all.

My friend, however, has a very similar setup that I have. The only difference is, really, the guitar (and guitar player). He uses a Gibson Les Paul with Seymour Duncan pick ups. But his guitar plug ins are limited to the default Pro Tools Sans Amp. His guitars are SOOOO dynamically beatiful its crazy. The tone sucks majorly as does his overall mixes, but his guitars are punchy as ****.

Is it my PRS, are PRS guitars not really desirable for hardcore/metal? I don't know what to do and I've tried alot of things. I even used the UNcompressor setting on the Waves C4 lol

Noob engineer needs help!!

 

[Fox Mulder]

You're complaining about dynamics? Maybe your friend is a better player than you are and/or you end up using more gain than him?
Lol, kidding.

 

[schnykeees]

You're complaining about dynamics? Maybe your friend is a better player than you are and/or you end up using more gain than him?
Lol, kidding.

Well he is a better guitar player, but it's not that (at least I don't think it is). There's not much he can do different when doing the standard chug chug chug during typical breakdowns. I've tried changing the gain on my preamp, the gain settings in the amp sim (for this project im doing now im using guitar rig 4)

I just can't figure it out.

 

[theRev]

Well, I'm basically in your same position... A month ago I get work in a Studio in my town so now I can fiddle with the real deal, but I've used amp sims for, well, years basically.

Now, I will tell you this little thing that I noticed, but opened my mind. After years of tweakings, trying every amp sim available, every damn impulse I could find on the interwebz, I never obtained a really punchy sound. Don't know why. So I started blaming amp sims.

But then, I downloaded a multitrack song from a user of this forum, Goddamn is the name if I remember correctly... there are some guitar DI's and I MUST TELL YOU... with a simple instance of Revalver, THOSE GUITARS SOUNDS FUCKIN AWESOME... Punchy and powerfull... It changed my mind, now for sure I know that guitar-hands really does make a lot of difference... Plus maybe other things for sure that I don't know and I will learn in the future, but really changed my mind about amp sims... They are obviously not as good as the real deal, but they can do a preatty POWERFULL job if the source is GOOD.

For example, I just discovered that the In built speaker simulation in Revalver is waaaay much dynamic and "good sounding" of all of the impulses I collected in the year... But strangely no one try that approach, I find it really strange...

 

[hurdy]

How do palm-mute guitar??

i'll always say keep your palm close to the bridge
Slide palm slowly while chuggin towards bridge until it sounds nice & "phat". THIS IS THE SWEET SPOT! Remember that position & sound.

Also, lower the gain a little if tis sounding a lil fizzy when palm-muting.
Try layering more guitars... it might help, it might not. Work on being very tight if layering guitars tho dude

 

[Sam Bottner]

Work on being very tight if layering guitars

Or just editing them well

 

[professorlamp]

maybe its in your technique, also the more gain the more saturation/compression/muddy/fizzy your tone will become.

 

[guitarded88]

Technique makes a much more drastic difference than u think.

also... Les Pauls are kind of known for their fat chunkiness... and he's using Duncans.

Not sure what the pick ups are in a PRS but they are definitely great guitars. Probably a little more versatile than the Gibson if you ask me?

Between The Buried And Me uses PRS guitars if you give a shit about them, and they sound fucking awesome... even if they don't sound "fat" compared to other bands.

 

[schnykeees]

listen to how punchy his guitars are compared to mine, they are two different songs, two different guitars and different guitar players but keep in mind the overall punchiness of it.

his mix it have horrible tone, too much limiting and just a bad mix

my mix this is also a crappy mix but good enough just to get my point across

his guitars are just punchier, i mean i dont know if thats the right word or not but do you hear what i;m talking about it? when i listen to it, i can feel his guitars punching me but my guitars dont, they barely even slap the air infront of me


edit: BTBAM have epic guitars. idk what im doing wrong.

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

How do palm-mute guitar??

i'll always say keep your palm close to the bridge
Slide palm slowly while chuggin towards bridge until it sounds nice & "phat". THIS IS THE SWEET SPOT! Remember that position & sound.

very true but there are also times where you want to put your palm further up for that thinner but tighter chug sound.

 

[botus99]

listen to how punchy his guitars are compared to mine, they are two different songs, two different guitars and different guitar players but keep in mind the overall punchiness of it.

his mix it have horrible tone, too much limiting and just a bad mix

my mix this is also a crappy mix but good enough just to get my point across

his guitars are just punchier, i mean i dont know if thats the right word or not but do you hear what i;m talking about it? when i listen to it, i can feel his guitars punching me but my guitars dont, they barely even slap the air infront of me


edit: BTBAM have epic guitars. idk what im doing wrong.

Your mix sounded much "thinner" in those clips, mostly because your friends mix had much more 100hz-400hz involved. I think the overheads were a little loud and maybe a bit harsh in your clip. I'd rebalance everything in your mix. Maybe add some more low end beef from the kick and bass and the mix (and hence your guitars) should sound thicker.

 

[Mattayus]

His mix had bass. That's an enormous deal when it comes to guitars. People underestimate the power that bass adds, it's pretty much 50% of your entire guitar tone/feel. FWIW, it's nothing to do with sims vs the real deal, it's just circumstantial. My advice to everyone is to always get it right at the source, i.e. the guitar/pickups. For clarity, definition, dynamics, everything, you need to have the right gear for what you're looking for.

 

[arv_foh]

Wait... you guys have a Rosetta 800 and a $1400 summing box but you don't have any real amps for guitarists to use? I think you guys need to get your priorities straight... aka getting it right at the source. I don't understand why you'd have all this nice gear/preamps and use guitar sims? Maybe that's just me.. I find it much easier to get usable tones from real amps as opposed to using sims

and your mix has almost no bass guitar which is a huge part of thick, chunky sounding guitar tones.. the other mix (although pretty awful sounding) has a lot more bass guitar

and are you running the DI into a pre before it hits the rosetta? I don't imagine the level coming out of the DI to be hot enough to just plug into a line level input but I could be wrong... and the brand of the DI matters too.. are you using a nice one?

 

[schnykeees]

you guys have a Rosetta 800 and a $1400 summing box but you don't have any real amps for guitarists to use? I think you guys need to get your priorities straight... aka getting it right at the source.

and your mix has almost no bass guitar which is a huge part of thick, chunky sounding guitar tones.. the other mix (although pretty awful sounding) has a lot more bass guitar

and are you running the DI into a pre before it hits the rosetta? I don't imagine the level coming out of the DI to be hot enough to just plug into a line level input but I could be wrong... and the brand of the DI matters too.. are you using a nice one?

that would be the bands job, if they dont have any i have a few amps and amp sims

the mix doesn't have bass guitar, its not the bass im talking about. i understand the bass affects it but that's not what im talking about. im not talking about a punch in a sense of frequency range, im talking about punch in a sense of dynamics.

the DI goes straight to the rosetta, at line level. i get healthy signal.

edit: when i listen to his mix i heard real dynamic change is the verse of his song. if i played those exact same chords, it won't sound like that. it will sound squashed.

 

[derfbonker]

Combo: Too much gain, playing style, and guitar/pickup combination.

 

[derfbonker]

double post. . .

 

[Sam Bottner]

I don't know why you would try to emulate his dynamics... it sounds terrible to me, way over-compressed/limited with volume fluctuations in the guitar due to that.

 

[schnykeees]

I don't know why you would try to emulate his dynamics... it sounds terrible to me, way over-compressed/limited with volume fluctuations in the guitar due to that.

see, you're listening to the track as a whole, the master. the overall mix is horrible, the master is being limited like a beyotch. i'm just admiring the guitar dynamics over mine.

i talked to him about it today and he thinks its his seymour duncan sh4's that are doing it. we are both on level terms when it comes to rhythm work, he can out sweep me any day of the week though

i'm thinking about geting a couple seyduncs and EMGs and just trying a whole bunch out. or maybe just borrow his guitar for when i need to track. haha

 

[tempe]

I really think you should try and aim for a "thinner" guitar tone, turn the gain down a bit, and track a really huge bass tone, then tweak your guitar tone from there. As everyone else has been saying, it makes a huuuuugee difference.

 

[Sam Bottner]

see, you're listening to the track as a whole, the master. the overall mix is horrible, the master is being limited like a beyotch. i'm just admiring the guitar dynamics over mine.

Well, the guitar dynamics are severely effected by the crappy mastering, so it's hard to even tell how punchy it is. Maybe just tell him not to limit so much, because his mix isn't horrible besides that, that's just really distracting.