amp sims-- lack of punchiness?

[Rex Rocker]

I don't know if this is exactly what you mean by 'dynamic', but, personally, 'dynamic playing' is not really what I'd look for in chuggah chuggah parts. I think a player that's better at picking consistently hard and precise is a player that's gonna sound better in those kinda mixes you're attempting, rather someone that's playing some parts hard, some parts soft, some parts medium.

JMO.

 

[Sam Bottner]

I don't know if this is exactly what you mean by 'dynamic', but, personally, 'dynamic playing' is not really what I'd look for in chuggah chuggah parts. I think a player that's better at picking consistently hard and precise is a player that's gonna sound better in those kinda mixes you're attempting, rather someone that's playing some parts hard, some parts soft, some parts medium.

JMO.

I completely agree with this. I listen to bands founded upon these riffs (Veil of Maya, Born of Osiris, etc.) and their recordings have zero dynamics and sound massive (well at least VoM, Born of Osiris' recordings suck for the most part).

 

[lolzgreg]

that would be the bands job, if they dont have any i have a few amps and amp sims

I'd say this is a pretty bad view on owning guitar amplifiers. You expect a band to bring you in a guitar head in tip top shape that was recently retubed and actually know how to set it to make it sound good? It's your job to provide the tools to make the best sounding record possible. I'm not just saying that because I'm an amp whore either.

 

[Trevoire520]

I'd say this is a pretty bad view on owning guitar amplifiers. You expect a band to bring you in a guitar head in tip top shape that was recently retubed and actually know how to set it to make it sound good? It's your job to provide the tools to make the best sounding record possible. I'm not just saying that because I'm an amp whore either.

MASSIVE +1 to this!

You've gotta have something as a backup for ANY instance of a band having shit gear.
Aswell as my mic's, preamps, plug ins etc I have:

6 guitars
1 bass
2 snare drums
3 amp heads
2 speaker cabinets
a tubscreamer
moon gels
evans muting rings
good quality guitar leads

You basically need an entire band setup so that you're ready for whatever you get thrown at you.

And dude you have a PRS, Waves plugins, Neve pre's, Avalon 737 etc. It's not like you're short of money. Get out there and buy:

Mesa Standard 4x12"
Peavey Windsor
Peavey 6505
Bugera 333XL
Jet City JCA20

Well done, you are now sorted for awesome guitar tones no matter what pish the band brings in.

 

[schnykeees]

I'd say this is a pretty bad view on owning guitar amplifiers. You expect a band to bring you in a guitar head in tip top shape that was recently retubed and actually know how to set it to make it sound good? It's your job to provide the tools to make the best sounding record possible. I'm not just saying that because I'm an amp whore either.

While that may be true, I don't have the $$$ to go out and buy 11 gorgoues sounding heads/cabs, 9 or 10 go-to mics. I have my list, yea... but I don't have the funds to make that dream a reality. All my gear was, basically, given to me... so I'm not this loaded guy who can go out and buy the latest and greatest Neve pre or upgrade to an HD3 system just cuz i feel like it.

Just trying to get the best possible tone with what I have.

 

[drdan]

Dude, a nice Bugera head is around $600. Save up, get the Bugera 333xl and you're close. There are so many good used cabs used online in places like craigslist and music stores it isn't funny. I would seriously suggest working towards that.

 

[Harry Hughes]

Dude, a nice Bugera head is around $600. Save up, get the Bugera 333xl and you're close. There are so many good used cabs used online in places like craigslist and music stores it isn't funny. I would seriously suggest working towards that.

Word.
<3 my 333XL.
With Bugera now available, there is simply no excuse not to be able to afford a tube amp and learning how to mic it up.
Used 5150s are all over the place too for cheap.

 

[aortizjr]

listen to how punchy his guitars are compared to mine, they are two different songs, two different guitars and different guitar players but keep in mind the overall punchiness of it.

his mix it have horrible tone, too much limiting and just a bad mix

my mix this is also a crappy mix but good enough just to get my point across

his guitars are just punchier, i mean i dont know if thats the right word or not but do you hear what i;m talking about it? when i listen to it, i can feel his guitars punching me but my guitars dont, they barely even slap the air infront of me


edit: BTBAM have epic guitars. idk what im doing wrong.

OK, mix problems aside, I can sort of hear what you are talking about with the "punchiness"

Personally what I hear is something wrong with your technique. The really good chugga metal players can make an acoustic guitar sound metal. It is good and solid palmmutes with the right balance of mute and open and making those notes pop with the right amount of force at the right angle. Hard for me to say for sure without seeing you play, but I hear it and see it a lot with players.

The other side of it is pickups, EMG's are known to have so much gain that it makes every hit sound like it was hit hard. Great for metal, but hence the often "steril" or "cold" sound often referred to them and poor cleans. But even sticking to dynamic pickups, a nice punchy pickup set at the right height will do wonders.

PRS pickups are more meant to be versatile and squishier to some degree. In my world, better for big open chords or cleans and more hard rock oriented stuff, leads, etc. Not as good for punchy thrash metal sort of stuff.

But I would start with technique. If you can make an acoustic guitar sound metal, punchy, and tight with the same riffs, you are getting somewhere. Or even try on your guitar without anything plugged in.

 

[Harry Hughes]

The other side of it is pickups, EMG's are known to have so much gain that it makes every hit sound like it was hit hard. Great for metal, but hence the often "steril" or "cold" sound often referred to them and poor cleans. But even sticking to dynamic pickups, a nice punchy pickup set at the right height will do wonders.

If that's in anyway serious..........god help us.
There are heaps of passive pickups that easily shit all over EMGs for output level. EMGs are nowhere near as high output as they are made out to be.

 

[Aaron Smith]

The "sound" of EMG pickups comes much more from the fact that they kind of internally clip the signal, more than the fact that the output is supposedly super high. And I disagree with anyone who says that EMGs can't be involved with an absolutely killer clean tone.

 

[iHate]

i'm thinking about geting a couple seyduncs and EMGs and just trying a whole bunch out. or maybe just borrow his guitar for when i need to track. haha

The pickups really wont make a shit of a difference in what you are describing as a lack of tone.

I can make a $100 piece of shit squier with a no-name chinese-made humbucker sound "punchy"

It's all in what your playing, how your playing, and your mix. Not the guitar, the guitar itself makes such a small difference that you will be sorely disappointed by blowing $$ on a bunch of pickups.

The clip you posted, is only single string stuff and the L/R are playing different things. Of course it's going to sound thin. Palm mute a big fuggin power chord on both L/R and boost 100-150hz til it sounds big enough. Also scooping in the wrong frequencies will make it sound like buzzing shit. The right midrange frequencies need to be present enough to sound big, scooping blindly will sound like crap. Just play around; it's not the pickups.

 

[aortizjr]

Damn... you guys jump on me quick

EMG's may not always have more output level, but an active pickup is actually a fairly weak regular magnetic with a pre-amp/buffer/line driver/whatever you want to call it. So the gain in there is fairly high to make up for the weak pickup, output level should be higher but not always. But this gain can cause clipping and changes the impedance which alters (minimizes) the impedance interaction with the amp/cable/etc. In theory, all for the better and more hifi. But in practice, some people like the sound of high capacitance cables. Take coiled guitar cables, high capacitance and high inductance gives you some serious losses, but it is the right losses for many guitarists... go figure.

As far as cleans, all depends on your cleans. EMG's to me and many others give much more sterile and cold clean. This can still sound beautiful depending on the player and preferences. But compared to a good dynamic and doing jazz or blues and any case where you really want to work the dynamics, EMG's just don't respond right. To *me* they sound too compressed and homogenized. But maybe that is what you want? Tons of guys run compressors for their cleans... I do on occasion as well depending on what I am doing.

As an example, most of the time, I like to pick soft for a "clean" tone and I can hit harder for distortion and breakup. So I can give the cleans and parts a bit of grit by hitting a bit harder for more expression. EMG's to me take too much (not all) of this away. So I also don't like super duper clean channels. And for rock and blues, I roll with essentially a single channel amp, well a Sovtek MIG100, not switchable.

As with anything it is all preference, and the pickup has to fit in with the rest of your rig. So I prefer Duncan dynamics. But I certainly am not going to put down EMG's, they do their thing and many love them. Same with DiMarzio, Lace, Bareknuckle, etc. and all the models within. I don't like ALL Duncans either.

So YMMV.

 

[kev]

No amp sims or impulses are ever going to make up for the punchiness of a loud live setup blowing its ass through a bunch of tubes and speaker cones, into your microphones. You can get about 90% of the way there with a few tricks though.

I have been wishing for the last few years it would, and experimented beyond belief. There are plenty of tones that you'll be able to emulate with no problems, but when it comes to wanting the 3D sound of the beast, its time to get a place to crank some amps.

 

[ahjteam]

- bass guitar is 60% of the bigness on guitars
- palm muted powerchords will always sound bigger than single string stuff
- better playing always sounds better

 

[if6was9]

I'd say this is a pretty bad view on owning guitar amplifiers. You expect a band to bring you in a guitar head in tip top shape that was recently retubed and actually know how to set it to make it sound good? It's your job to provide the tools to make the best sounding record possible. I'm not just saying that because I'm an amp whore either.

Totally agree here, In my opinon having a savage, reliable backline for a band to work with is almost as important as having tons of different mics and such. After all how many times have we read "fix it at the source" if your source is great then thats most of the fight won already. It's not that expensive to get a good backline over time, especially if you have some money put aside for grabbing killer deals when they pop up- and they do pop up!

Can we hear another example of what you're talking about in your mixes with your guitar in a mix with bass? They're pretty out of context with each other so it's hard to see what you mean. I'm pretty sure you don't mean dynamics- that refers to volume changes.

 

[Shraphead]

I've been having the same problems, I guess it's just that the ampsims needs heavy tweaking and a really good input, wich I can't always give them

I get much better tone by micing my peavey triple xxx head with a røde nt2-a (wich is my only proper mic) than plugging into the guitar rig wich cost me 500 highly needed $.

Compressing (maybe even some eq) going in to the ampsim helps a lot though. And making your own presets! Don't know about other sims, but the factorypresets for metal in guitar rig 3 sucks

And yeah, the bass tone seems crucial to the guitartone.