Anyone else annoyed by drummers with.......

[mva801]

More experienced drummers who play live in decent venues and record a lot know how to set up their kits for microphones. I went through a change when I started getting my kit mic'd up and realized my effects cymbals were getting in the way of tom mics.

Now that I engineer, I set my kit up totally different, to allow for micing live and in the studio.

 

[Russtopher]

So you wouldn't complain if the guitarist has a backbow on his guitarneck, because thats just how he likes to set up his guitars?

I don't think that comparison quite works here; a backbow on a neck is going to cause some serious tone/intonation issues, but a ride cymbal on the same side as hats certainly doesn't. So the "standard" stereo image is different... BFD.

I think there's fault on both sides here- the drummer should have been a bit more accommodating to ensure that he got the best sound on his recording, and Ben should've done a bit more to try and make things work rather than simply trigger then bitch here.

If a drummer's used to playing open handed style live all the time, odds are that's simply how he/she plays, period. So why bother moving the ride to the other side just for the studio? If anything, you want the musicians to be as comfortable as possible in an environment they're not used to - making them move their ride to their non-dominant hand certainly would mess things up.

Really, sometimes I think people just like being difficult for the sake of being difficult, and hope it makes a "funny" story on teh intar-webz later.

 

[JeffTD]

I think the point that you're all missing out on is that a good drummer, like a good guitarist, bassist, singer, xylophonist, etc, also understands the importance of having their instrument heard at it's best, especially when recorded. We've all made (what we thought at the time were) compromises in our playing/setup to attain better results when recorded/playing live, and a drumset is no different.

I don't care how well a person can play - if they don't understand basic concepts of tone and take into consideration how they'll be sounding to others, they're shitty musicians.

 

[dontletmedrown]

I don't care where the ride is. The cymbals right on top of the toms is annoying for sure. I just try and be positive but also very assertive. It's the kind of situation where you can come off sounding like a whiny bitch if you don't handle it right. No emotion, just "these gotta come up" and if they ask why, quickly tell them with no bs. If the drummer is a twat then I'm fine with triggering + room mics.

 

[drew_drummer]

My take is this - the side my ride goes on has nothing to do with the tone from my kit. It's about comfort.

Saying that; I would not be adverse to moving my cymbals *slightly* to help the recording effort.

But I also would not be adverse to using a smaller microphone, or micing the underside of the toms if that worked better.

 

[SkybluestudiosBEN]

IMO some "musicians" get caught up in shitty habbits, I think turning your toms toward you is a shitty habit (as it is discussed in the sticky thread about recording drums) and I also think putting your ride next to your hi hat is a shitty habit, To me it sounds boring if your hearing the ride on the same side as the hi hat for 10 songs straight. Sure I can PAN it but then youll hear shit from the other side and it will all be on both sides. Any drummer that I have recorded that was actually good did not do ANY of these shitty habits and it was super easy to mic their sets, because they KNOW whats up.

 

[Russtopher]

Carter Beauford disagrees about your ideas of a "shitty habit"

That's his ride in the upper left of the photo, above his hi-hats.

It's ok to dislike the aspect of mixing a band and feeling that the kit is out of sorts because the hats and ride are on the same side. But to call playing open handed-style a "shitty habit" is being ignorant.

I know it's funny to bash drummers (and as one I usually laugh because it's true) but in this case, I think both of you were just being stubborn and in the end, you took an easy way out and are justifying it by knocking the playing style/setup.

 

[JeffTD]

Carter Beauford disagrees about your ideas of a "shitty habit"

No, not really - if you actually listened to DMB, you'd know that he spends quite a bit of time on his right-side hat, has a bunch of cymbals on his right side that he uses frequently, and actually records a lot with a ride on that side, as well.

 

[Russtopher]

No, not really - if you actually listened to DMB, you'd know that he spends quite a bit of time on his right-side hat, has a bunch of cymbals on his right side that he uses frequently, and actually records a lot with a ride on that side, as well.

In truth, I don't listen to them. In the vids I've seen, Carter seems to favor the ride that's over his hat. I dig his drumming, but can't say I'm a DMB fan.

The point I'm trying to make is that open handed playing style is not "shitty".

 

[JeffTD]

Right, but open handed does not at all mean "imbalanced cymbal placement," which is what we're arguing against. Again, I'll reference my own quote about good musicians having an understanding of how their playing will come across, both live and recorded.

 

[drew_drummer]

Right, but open handed does not at all mean "imbalanced cymbal placement," which is what we're arguing against. Again, I'll reference my own quote about good musicians having an understanding of how their playing will come across, both live and recorded.

Ride on left, crash on right.
Crash on left, ride on right.

Where's the imbalance again?

It's only an imbalance IF it actually impedes your playing. Jeff, I respect you, but I have to ask - do you even play drums?

 

[arv_foh]

Ride on left, crash on right.
Crash on left, ride on right.

Where's the imbalance again?

It's only an imbalance IF it actually impedes your playing. Jeff, I respect you, but I have to ask - do you even play drums?

what does that matter? that's like saying if an engineer doesn't play guitar he won't know what a good guitar tone is

 

[PhilR]

what does that matter? that's like saying if an engineer doesn't play guitar he won't know what a good guitar tone is

It's all a bit irrelevant isn't it? Ultimately he's not the drummer and has no business telling the drummer to completely alter his playing preferences just to make the engineers life a little bit easier (for "easier" read: JUST THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE).

Just two great drummers that set their kits up open-handed:

GENE HOGLAN
MIKE BORDIN

Live with it.

 

[Fredrik-Ablaze]

Close mic the ride, pan it, try to get it isolated so it doesnt bleed or just keep it where the drummer has it...
If the toms are too close then mic them from the "inside" (actually saw pics from the recording sessions of the last ANATA album over at Bogrens place and they had the mics inside the toms; really need to try that as it apparently doesnt get that much bleed that way)

Every problem has a solution, see it as a challenge

 

[JeffTD]

Ride on left, crash on right.
Crash on left, ride on right.

Where's the imbalance again?

It's only an imbalance IF it actually impedes your playing. Jeff, I respect you, but I have to ask - do you even play drums?

I'm talking hats and rides, don't bring crashes in - hat/ride are the main 'rhythm' cymbals, for the most part, in this genre. If both of those are on the same side, it throws things off.

Once again, I'm going to reference how annoying as shit Gene Hoglan's setup of ride and hat on the same side on The New Black is. Totally imbalanced, from a listeners perspective.

And no, I don't play drums - I lack the mental deficiencies and inability to count to 4 that seem to be a prerequisites for the instrument.

 

[RemoWilliams]

Once again, I'm going to reference how annoying as shit Gene Hoglan's setup of ride and hat on the same side on The New Black is. Totally imbalanced, from a listeners perspective.

I've never noticed that. Granted I usually listen to it in the car, or when I'm listening to it at home, I guess I'm paying attention to where the ride and hi-hat is coming from.

 

[if6was9]

Gotta say that where the drummer has their ride matters alot less to me than how it sounds and if they can play it well. As long as it sounds good I don't see a reason to move it.

 

[drew_drummer]

I'm talking hats and rides, don't bring crashes in - hat/ride are the main 'rhythm' cymbals, for the most part, in this genre. If both of those are on the same side, it throws things off.

Yeah but you're talking from a mix perspective, and I'm talking from a players perspective.

Once again, I'm going to reference how annoying as shit Gene Hoglan's setup of ride and hat on the same side on The New Black is. Totally imbalanced, from a listeners perspective.

That's a matter of opinion. But engineers are there to capture a performance. That's why they learn techniques like spot-micing, X/Y patterns, etc.. etc..

If the engineer is not good enough to cope with the way a drummer sets up their kit, then they should not be recording drums.

And no, I don't play drums - I lack the mental deficiencies and inability to count to 4 that seem to be a prerequisites for the instrument.

 

[drew_drummer]

what does that matter? that's like saying if an engineer doesn't play guitar he won't know what a good guitar tone is

Well it's about experience. In the same way that an engineer who can play guitar is more likely to be able to get a good tone, an engineer who can play drums and understands how they function is more likely to be able to get a good recording of them.

It's not about saying Jeff has no place to voice his opinions on this because he doesn't play drums - not what I'm saying at all.

 

[J the TyranT]

Jeff, coming across like a real close-minded fucking douche in this thread.

And no, I don't play drums - I lack the mental deficiencies and inability to count to 4 that seem to be a prerequisites for the instrument.

Probably the most retarded statement Ive seen on this entire forum, and that says a lot. Way to whine about people's placement. Ive got shit on both sides, depending on where they fit particular to arrangements, songs... and well the length of my fucking arms.

Go ahead. bitch about that, too