Audio quality...

[General Zod]

Hmmm, gotta say that it's different per album/genre etc..

I think you may have missed the point. That's not intended to be insulting or inflammatory. Read on...

But bands that play really dirty death metal or black metal, they can really profit from a not so sleek production.

I don't think the issue is the production itself, but rather the sound compression MP3s introduce.

I agree with you... some bands, on the extreme end of the Metal spectrum, benefit from a less polished sound. It can add tremendously to the dark atmosphere of the music. However, those artists should determine the level of polish their music receives, not the person encoding the MP3s. The issue isn't that everything should sound crisp and clean. The issue is that everything suffers when compressed into a low bit rate MP3. Even the most obscure Black Metal demo, that sounds like it was recorded in a well on CD, sounds like it was recorded in a compressed well when that CD is encoded at a low bit rate.

Zod

 

[Rycher]

As well I got my megadeth collection in mp3's too from another place - again I am very upset. With this one the bass was quite a bit further up front, okay quality - but I noticed that someone had remastered the entire thing - probably trying to appeal to the popular music crowd today.

The responsible party was Dave Mustaine himself! He remixed/remastered all of the albums (Peace Sells through Risk) several years ago.

 

[Jasonic]

The responsible party was Dave Mustaine himself! He remixed/remastered all of the albums (Peace Sells through Risk) several years ago.

Somehow, it's probably James and Lars fault...

 

[Novembers Paul]

Keep in mind, this is not a debate on what audio format is the best. That's ALL opinion based on the listener. Sure, you can argue warmth vs clarity and tonal range, but it all comes down to what is familiar and comfortable to your ears. If you grew up on Vinyl, chances are you will prefer the sound of vinyl. My concern with this was that the comfortable and familiar sound to today's youth is highly compressed mp3's that they feel sounds "better" and this is very easily argued, as the compression strips data from the source. Cassette tape, Vinyl, CD, 8 tracks... All these sources are commercially acceptable, and really comparable in sound. I guarantee these kids are totally fine with with 128 kbps rips too. 192 is the LOWEST you should go... Even Vito has some 128 kbps rips of his CDs on his iPod we listen to in the the car, and I ask him every time I hear it "128 K Rip?"

I hate the fact do to convenience, people are ruining their "comfort zone" of music.

 

[kleo706]

That mentality always confused me. I remember being all into the Devin Townsend online community up until SYL's Alien leaked. People were typing up massive critiques of the production based on lossy files. To top that off, the promo ripped didn't even contain the final mix. They excised a chunk of one track, added a major solo to another, never mind little tweaks here and there. How can you really review something until you're holding the product as intended by the creator? Sure you canh say "yeah they changed the style of riffing in this way" but to say "the bass tracks need to move up in the mix" should require that you hear the mix in an uncompressed, complete form.

 

[General Zod]

Keep in mind, this is not a debate on what audio format is the best. That's ALL opinion based on the listener. Sure, you can argue warmth vs clarity and tonal range, but it all comes down to what is familiar and comfortable to your ears.

I'll throw this question out to Paul, Larry and any other serious musicians on the forum:

Is the idea that vinyl sounds "warmer" complete bullshit?

It's always seemed liked bullshit to me. I've always felt that people are associating "warmth" with nostalgia. The snap, crackle and pop of vinyl reminds them of long gone days, and that triggers a sense of nostalgia, and subsequently, warmth.

Am I wrong? Is there something going on sonically, that can properly be defined as sounding "warm"?

Even Vito has some 128 kbps rips of his CDs on his iPod we listen to in the the car, and I ask him every time I hear it "128 K Rip?"

Yeah... I typically can't decipher 192 Kbps rips from CD, but I can with 128.

Zod

 

[FearSore]

Zod, You gotta remember alotta people who are into vinyl and describe the difference are also very intense audiophiles. I might suggest to target your listening - you arent going to get the same dynamics and warmth from an obscure punk album as say an album by Tangerine Dream. The warmth for me is a rich low end and very clear spacious highs as well as dynamic midrange rather than a very flat sound. I remember that's the way i first felt when I made "The Switch".

I totally agree with Paul's sentiments. From a musician's standpoint, taking the end result of pieces that were worked on very hard for the highest possible quality and best representation of what was intended and settling for a less quality rendition of the original is a bit of a slap in the face for going as far as the musician did to achieve that quality. I can understand taste testing it that way to see if it is something you would like. But I prefer all my music be the highest quality when I listen to it thus I do a lot of searching for things with the highest kbps.
I guess maybe too it's just a personal thing, you cant expect people to be as picky and dare I say passionate about what they listen too as a musician would be.

 

[Novembers Paul]

The warmth comes from analog vs digital. There's a more organic feeling with analog you seem to lose with digital. Well, that was true more so years ago, but digital has come a very long way. It's not even about the crackles and pops of vinyl (I personally HATE that noise). I'm not even sure of how to properly explain this... Analog has a richer tone in the bass end, while digital tends to add more in the mid to high range. But, like I said, this was much more evident before mastering has become such an important part of recording.

On Two Welcome The Fade, we recorded everything digitally, and when we went to Texas to mix with Neil Kernon, the first thing he did was transfer the drum tracks from the digital source to a 2" analog tape, and it added that "warmth" back into the drums. I'm not sure technically why it works, someone else may be able to tell you that, but it did make a difference in the sound, and for the better. But these days, there are filters and the technology has come a long way on things like Pro Tools where it's damn hard to tell the difference anymore.

It's one of the reasons I really want to hear ND on vinyl. I'd love to see if it adds that old analog feeling to the music, even though it's digital.

This is also audiophile stuff. To most people, it will be preference, and again familiarity and comfort.

 

[General Zod]

FearSore & Paul... thanks.

Zod

 

[Katatonic89]

I've never heard a vinyl of a record that I like. When I was a kid I sometimes listend with my father but I dont remember anything about the sound. I do like mp3s though, but I only rip in 320. I dont get why you have to love and hate some formats, just enjoy the good things about all of them.

But I do want to get a recordplayer so I can stary buying vinyls but not for the sound, rather for the size of the records. I think CD's are to small and that ruins the artwork.

 

[Jasonic]

Paul - you make an excellent point about recording Analog VS digital.

With my first semi-serious band, which was more of an indie rock thing, we recorded analog. At first I was like, "What is this? The 70's? That reel is huge!" The end result definitely had the "warmth" you speak of.

Any recording session I did afterwards was digital, and the end result was not the same.

It is amazing though how many labels are releasing vinyl again. Let's be realistic though, it's being done for the sake of "hipness" as opposed to audio quality.

 

[metalprof]

you arent going to get the same dynamics and warmth from an obscure punk album as say an album by Tangerine Dream.

Do you get dynamics and warmth from Tangerine Dream records like Atem or Electronic Meditation??

I have to admit that I generally rip from CDs to MP3 at 192 (which my software describes as "FM quality", I think). This is for 2 reasons: (1) I have a MP3 player that's several years old, so it doesn't have that much room! (2) More importantly, though, if I'm listening via the MP3 player, it's generally while exercising, traveling, etc - in other words, when there's a lot of background noise and I'm not concentrating solely on the tunes. Or, I'm listening through my tiny crappy computer speakers. Either way, quality is almost a non-issue.

When I get a player with lots more memory, I'll probably start ripping at higher quality.

This response adds nothing to the conversation, but I perked up at the mention of Tangerine Dream.

Ken

 

[Jasonic]

This response adds nothing to the conversation, but I perked up at the mention of Tangerine Dream.

What's that thing that the character Ogre says in the beginning of that one movie in the 80's???????????

Oh yea! "Nerds! Nerds! Nerds! Nerds!"

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Somewhere on another forum, Neil (Kernon) offered up a long and detailed explanation of "analog vs. digital" and why vinyl records sound different than cds, and so forth. To sum it up- no it's not bullshit, there are genuine differences in the sound, but it's not only so much because of it being on a record as opposed to on a compact disc, but the way in which the music was recorded, mixed and mastered.

In as much as I think some old recordings just sound better on vinyl (because they were recorded, mixed and mastered in such a way as to be heard on vinyl, the intended format), I think some newer recordings sounds inferior when played on vinyl as compared to their compact disc counterpart. I remember picking up Opeth Morningrise on vinyl many years back, and thinking that it sounded a bit too noisy and thin when compared to the cd. From what I've come to understand about these things, I'm guessing it's because the manner in which the music was mastered and then transferred onto vinyl wasn't ideal for that format?

In any event, I wouldn't say that EVERYTHING sounds better on vinyl. Not at all. But I do think some stuff does sound better on the vinyl format than any other.


One thing I've been curious about......considering how low we tune and how bass-heavy the mixes are for Novembers Doom (this new upcoming cd is some of our heaviest in that regard, too), I wonder if it will sound good pressed onto vinyl, or would it require some kind of remastering in order for it to sound right?

 

[Katatonic89]

Well you do mix/master in different ways for CD and vinyl so I guess it could use some changes. But I dont realy know, it's just what I've read.

 

[Novembers Paul]

To do the vinyl properly, we would remix and remaster. Hardly anyone does this these days, and just puts the CD masters on vinyl, which is what I would suspect we would have to do to keep things economically viable.

 

[FearSore]

Do you get dynamics and warmth from Tangerine Dream records like Atem or Electronic Meditation??

Hehehehe Good Call.
I am gonna have to go with Cyclone and Stratusfear for warmth and dynamics.
To stay with the whole Vinyl vs Digital, and if you are into that sort of music; I have listened to the vinyl version of Electronic Meditation and the CD version and unfortunately the vinyl version was rich and thick while the CD sounded very thin and air-y(I bought the CD but I cant really appreciate it like I did when I heard the vinyl).

 

[DigitalViolence]

Much of the problem is that a lot of people have 3rd rate equipment that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 128K rip or a lossless AAC. Most PC speakers are useless for decent music listening and iPod earphones, for example are terrible.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Much of the problem is that a lot of people have 3rd rate equipment that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 128K rip or a lossless AAC. Most PC speakers are useless for decent music listening and iPod earphones, for example are terrible.

This is actually very true, and a piece of the puzzle I didn't even consider. Honestly though, even with my laptop speakers, I can heave a difference between 128. A rip at 198 on the laptop speakers, I may have a harder time hearing it.

 

[TheNewChupe]

I spent a bit of time & money after moving to StLouis in researching & purchasing some quality stereo/speaker equipment, and even with only the $600 or so invested, it is extremely apparent what is a quality source and what isn't. The neutrality of the system shows flaws in recordings rather than coloring them, so it's easy to hear. Like you said, PC speakers, headphones, & many car stereo speakers just don't have the capacity to show off the high caliber sound a good source provides; on those lesser systems, i sometimes actually prefer 192k or even less rips. On my main system, I definitely prefer an original cd for the many reasons you already mentioned (cymbal flange, etc, even at 192k, 256k, or even 320k).

I also had the same first thought you guys mentioned about ND material transferring to vinyl: in order to do it justice, a remix/remaster would really be in order. I imagine it would take a well-trained mixing ear to translate in the head how a digital source would render well on an analog medium like vinyl.

One case that stands out to me is the first two Humble Pie records, which I bought on vinyl when i was a freshman in college. I loved the warmth of the drums, the B3, etc. I purchased the remastered reissues, thinking I'd love to have them on cd, & hated them due to the harshness of cymbals, acoustic guitars, reverb, and some vocals. I even found myself preferring dubbed cassette copies from the vinyl more than the cds. That's where i'd guess the mix was intended for an analog medium, which has a certain loss of high frequencies, and the transfer to digital medium retained the high freq including the 'room for analog error', resulting in the harshness. A remixing would probably have been much nicer, but not very efficient monetarily. Not sure if that's accurate or not, but it makes sense.

I'm hoping you guys have fun with The Knowing remix. Looking forward to hearing what comes about.