Balancing your mix so you can get it to commercial levels without audible distortion

[AdamWathan]

Epic thread title I know... This is something I really struggle with. A/Bing my "mastered" mixes against other stuff I listen to in iTunes, I can't get it loud enough. I feel like it is my low end that is driving my shit to audibly distort too early when clipping, but I don't know why. I am high passing every single track as high as possible, there is nothing with excessive low end "boom" going on...

Here's a little riff thing I did the other day...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3616293/5150mix6.mp3

Maybe I'm just too close to it but I feel like that is already clipping audibly A LOT, like, it sounds very unpleasant compared to the "unmastered" version to me, and it's still too quiet.

Mastering chain was Tapehead with drive set to 0 for a little bit of saturation and some smoother high end, T-Racks Clipper pushed as far as I could before it started sounding horrible, then an extra 1 or 1.5db of GR with Massey L2007.

I know I could use a multiband compressor for the low mids/low end but I don't like that idea, I don't feel like I should have to do it, there should be a way to correct the problem before it happens instead of trying to patch it up with a multiband. I know jval on the board just clips his mixes with the Trim plugin in Pro Tools when printing pseudo-masters for bands and he gets stuff up to commercial levels with no problem and last I asked him about it he isn't using a multiband comp at all these days.

Anyone have any tips for me? My goal is to get a mix balanced enough that I can "pseudo-master" with a clipper and nothing else.

 

[iHate]

The guitars are pretty woofy in the low end, which could be causing some of your problems. I've been using G-clip and have great results with getting very loud mixes with little noticeable distortion.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Commercial mixes generally do have a decent amount of audible clipping, just take a listen to the guitars, most of the time they are clipping. Still a clipper (not a limiter) can shave off extreme transients that will kill your headroom, but aren't audible, when you clip them, no clipping will be heard, generally. Limiting will have a compression style effect which can ruin dynamics, the smack of a kick and snare, where clipping will keep that sound intact.

Gclip all the way. I find that if I do modest settings with Gclip and the mix still isn;t as loud as commercial mixes, I find that my mix is lacking in the upper mids and has too much of the sub area, essentially sacrificing headroom and perceived volume for more lows

 

[darthjujuu]

i'm gonna say definitely get the demo of voxengo elephant and see if it "wows" you. lots of dudes point at tips for transient preservation, like clipping individual drumbus tracks. in my experience with c4 > elephant alone you can easily push something to commercial and beyond, but it takes some real magic to maintain all the dynamic. at the end of the day, don't beat yourself up TOO hard over comparing your "mini-masters" to commercial, because you need to keep in mind the whole different ballpark of hardware/software that high-end mastering houses are using. from the mastering grade converters to the outboard processing...we just can't touch that shit with just a digi and some plugins. so never ever will our self-done shit be able to even touch a commercial master. keep in mind also that most of our interfaces are calibrated to be bouncing mixes that peak around -4 to -6 db below unity... and not squashed against 0 at -7 RMS like we're going for when self-mastering. i think i read that off the new slate digital site.

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

we just can't touch that shit with just a digi and some plugins. so never ever will our self-done shit be able to even touch a commercial master. keep in mind also that most of our interfaces are calibrated to be bouncing mixes that peak around -4 to -6 db below unity... and not squashed against 0 at -7 RMS like we're going for when self-mastering. i think i read that off the new slate digital site.

I don't know man, Joey seems to be able to do it pretty good. His masters are pretty loud.

 

[Brendan.Clace]

I don't know man, Joey seems to be able to do it pretty good. His masters are pretty loud.

And they are dynamic, even and sound simply amazing. He is only using plugins is my understanding, so i am sure it's not really high end mastering gear that is required to get a decent master track.

 

[joeymusicguy]

i'm 100% in the box
as long as my mix works by its self, my master will just exagerate that

works every time

 

[jval]

I don't really hear too much clipping, but yeah I think the guitars have too much low end, so that could be contributing.
Have you tried the Trim plug instead of the T-Racks?? Just out of curiosity..

Usually the only time I have problems with audible clipping on my masters or mix refs is on my toms... still haven't nailed down exactly how much low end I can get away with on those..

In the end it really does come down to the mix... an even, well balanced mix will always come across louder with less distortion. I know that doesn't help though

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

do you guys mix through your mastering chain? I always set that up first and then mix through it, cause then there's no question of it getting fucked up once the mastering stuff goes on.

 

[gabriel g.]

A great balanced mix is the way to go.
I use analyzer tools a lot because I know my room is not treated well, so this helps me getting there...

I dont mix with any mastering plugins. I always try to get the mix sound great, and then TRY some mastering plugins (my usual chain is, waves SSL comp, waves pultec eq, waves api 2500 (in the old mode, you have a soft clipper) and then a limiter to without any threshold)

When the mix works in the mastering "test-mode"
I bounce it as a 24bit 44.100hz AIFF or Wave file and master it a new project.

The loudness not always have something to do with the RMS.
Low frequencies(like 50-150hz) doesnt sound as loud as high-mids (800hz-2khz) at the same RMS level!!!!!

The best mastering I heard in a long time is TERROR-the damned the shamed

It is at -10RMS, when you zoom in you see NO cut transients, and it has so much punch!!!
It also feels louder then some of masterings I did with -8RMS

 

[Chris_P_Critter]

Adam - I run into the same issues you do all the time, actually. And, I usually find that 9 times out of 10 it's a mextire of too muc "boom" with the kick and bass - guitars need to have some beef, but I always go overbard with the kick and bass. And, it's really easy to let it run amok when it's sounding good to your ears, on your system, in your mix room, etc!

 

[nwright]

do you guys mix through your mastering chain? I always set that up first and then mix through it, cause then there's no question of it getting fucked up once the mastering stuff goes on.

I would think this would not be a very good advice. I don't think it's bad to mix through your mastering chain, but I don't think it's good to set the mastering chain up before anything else...Waaaay too many variables in the mix when you are starting out, how would you even know where to set the mastering chains plugins, or what plugins you truly need?

 

[Harry Hughes]

Yeah, leave the mastering to the mastering stage or mastering engineer, just mix when you mix without master bus plug ins.

 

[Chris_P_Critter]

Mastering SHOULD just be level maximization, at least, that's always the way I see it. I have a bad habit of trying to fix things in my mixes with mastering plugs, but... that's no good.

 

[Harry Hughes]

Mastering SHOULD just be level maximization, at least, that's always the way I see it. I have a bad habit of trying to fix things in my mixes with mastering plugs, but... that's no good.

I used to do that too....just ruined the mixes even more

 

[gabriel g.]

Mastering SHOULD just be level maximization, at least, that's always the way I see it.

AMEN

 

[AdamWathan]

Here's another one where I tried to hack more low end out of everything, especially the guitars. Got it a bit louder but the guitars sound like they are clipping to me which is lame. I probably need to reamp the guitars and go for a different tone in the first place, I ended up doing a lot of EQ on these and they still sound like crap. Everything also sounds like it's fighting for the same space, there's really no separation between any of the elements in the mix :/ Bah I hate mixing.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3616293/5150mix7.mp3

I'm listening to so many mixes that sound at least as loud as this clip but they don't feel like they are all squeezed into a tiny box or something which is what this clip feels like to me. Something like Endgame is all at a great level, but with MORE low end than I have and it still feels like there's tons of space and headroom, it just sounds like it was so easy to get it loud because of the mix. I guess I'm still learning a lot about what my source tracks need to sound like on their own in the first place to fit together like that...

 

[AdamWathan]

Here's something annoying, done with the fucking "Rock Master - 4 band Dynamics" preset in Ozone it sounds waaaay better

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3616293/5150mix_ozone2.mp3

Thing is, I have no idea what that multi band section in Ozone is actually doing, the idea of using a preset repulses me! Bah... The multiband is definitely trying to band aid problems with the mix and I don't want that at all, I'd rather have the mix sound that way in the first place :/ I'll keep practicing!

 

[gabriel g.]

Dont you have any projects WITH vocals?
To balance the mix out , better practice with all instruments and vocals included!!!

 

[AdamWathan]

Yeah I am planning on conjuring up something today that's less ridiculous with all the blasting and some more varied riffing so I can throw some vocals over it and have something a little better to work with.