Bathory and Sabbath vs. Those They Influenced

[General Zod]

Samuel Taylor Coleridge said, "The dwarf sees farther than the giant, when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on."

Giants like Bathory and Sabbath may have come first, broken new ground and inspired a generation of musicians that followed. It's fair to say many of the bands I enjoy today would never have come to be without those who forged new genres. However, that does little to augment the enjoyment derived by listening to the music of the trailblazers, when compared to that of their followers.

Someone who bought Under the Sign of the Black Mark in 1987, may never listen to Primordial without hearing Bathory's inspiration. So for that listener, Primordial may never be able to surpass Bathory. However, for those who pick up both Blood Fire Death and The Gathering Wilderness in 2005, and compare them side by side, without historical context, it's not surprising that Primordial would be viewed as the superior band.

In another thread, J. stated, "A black metal fan is not a black metal fan without knowing Bathory. That is just plain fact." His line in the sand, that is Bathory, is completely arbitrary. Why not take it back further? According to Quorthon, the greatest piece of music ever written is Richard Wagner's eight hour opera Tristan Und Isolde. How many times has anyone on this board queued that up on their iPod? Can you truly know Bathory without knowing Wagner? If we continue to follow this timeline backwards, we'll eventually end up with the first Neanderthal who rhythmically tapped a rock againt a cave wall.

Giants like Bathory and Sabbath may have blazed a trail 1,000 miles long. However, all one of their followers needs to do to surpass them, is carve out one more inch. And to someone who doesn't care about the historical context of the two, the dwarf has created the superior piece of music. I don't know about you, but I've never once cranked up my stereo to hear historical context.

Zod

 

[Demilich]

Zod, you've raised a very interesting issue here. Lately, I've been very interested in tracing back to the roots of some of my favourite musicians and their influences. So far, the furthest back I've gotten is a bit of classical music and some blues, and I still have a lot to check out.

I'm one of the second category you mentioned: Bought Blood Fire Death in probably 2004 and The Gathering Wilderness in 2005. There's no question in my mind which band I like more, though its just my preference. It's hard to say how much the innovation of early Bathory sways me in their favour, but truly I try to stick to the sonic qualities in my evaluation of these things.

I pretty much let the music do the talking. It isn't my fault that the older the music, the louder it's talkin to me!

 

[General Zod]

I pretty much let the music do the talking. It isn't my fault that the older the music, the louder it's talkin to me!

Of course not. Just because a band came later, doesn't mean they did it better.

Zod

 

[Hell Mike]

Bathory is the very best band ever in the world, and that's simple fact in my book. Simply because the music of Bathory > other music (in general terms)

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Meh...NOONE "cranks his stereo up to hear historical context". For me, Sabbath's riffs/melodies, their songs in general, sound more inspired, original (yes, still) and emotional than almost anything else in the music world, and that is why i love them so much. And If you are able to understand why the X original band spawned all these followers, then you discover even more things in its music to be fascinated by. Also if the "historical context" seems charming to some, this is done in a totally undeliberate way.

 

[J.]

Why not take it back further? According to Quorthon, the greatest piece of music ever written is Richard Wagner's eight hour opera Tristan Und Isolde.

Because that was Quorthon's opinion. I doubt if I listened to that eight-hour piece, then listened to Bathory, I'd here many similarities. Whereas if you were to ask Nemtheanga where Primordial got there sound, Bathory would be at the top of his list, I'd bet. Hell, didn't he even tell you this at HCI?

Let me state this now: Bathory is not my favorite band. But I recognize the genius, sincerity, and emotion he put into his music. Not to mention the originality, and I tremendously enjoy it. And to me, it is foolish to write the band off because the music might sound dated in an era of bands using effects and production tricks to clean up (or intentionally mess up) their sound, when Bathory didn't have all these tricks of the trade, yet still created something essential.

To ignore the critical piece of black metal history just seems unwise.

And if I'm to check out this eight-hour Wagner piece because Quorthon simply thinks it's the neatest thing ever written, then I'd say surely anyone listening to nowadays black metal can give Bathory a listen every now and then to remind themselves that "Hey, without Bathory, I wouldn't be wasting my time listening to Deathspell Omega."


"...or even Graveland, who are the current carriers of Bathory's Viking era, as every knows."

 

[circus_brimstone]

And to me, it is foolish to write the band off because the music might sound dated in an era of bands using effects and production tricks to clean up (or intentionally mess up) their sound, when Bathory didn't have all these tricks of the trade, yet still created something essential.

To ignore the critical piece of black metal history just seems unwise.

It is, I believe, rational to write off a band if you just don't like them or don't care for them - pure and simple, history and influence aside.

 

[General Zod]

Because that was Quorthon's opinion. I doubt if I listened to that eight-hour piece, then listened to Bathory, I'd here many similarities.

Only one way to know for sure.

Whereas if you were to ask Nemtheanga where Primordial got there sound, Bathory would be at the top of his list, I'd bet.

As it would seem, Wagner would be a top Quorthon's.

To ignore the critical piece of black metal history just seems unwise.

To ignore it, possibly. To continue to listen to it after you determine that you dislike it, not at all.

Zod

 

[Dark One]

Very interesting post Greg, food for thought to be sure.

I'd say there's a level of respect that goes beyond the actual music for the legends and pioneers in respective musical genres. I mean, how can there not be? Their visions changed everything and led to us being able to hear the Primordials of the world years later. It's a respect unlike any other and reserved truly for those whose inspiration was revolutionary rather than evolutionary.

Now, having said that, I can separate the respect above (and believe me, it is an amazingly high level of respect) from the actual music when I sit down and say "ok, what do I want to reach for today, and what do I generally like the most?" This wholly different level of respect is open to be given to any band whatsoever. It's a truly subjective opinion at this point, and yeah, I would more than likely reach for Primordial over Bathory, but that does not mean that Primordial has earned the type of revolutionary respect reserved almost solely for Quorthon.

Primordial's music -

Quorthon, for giving everything he had, which led to my hearing of Primordial's music year's later -

Jason

 

[J.]

As it would seem, Wagner would be a top Quorthon's.

So Bathory's ugly, sloppy debut got the sound from Wagner's classical pieces? C'mon Greg. The Viking era albums have a distinct classical flavor (especially Twilight of the Gods), and even one song is a cover of a classical piece (not Wagner).

There's a difference between Quorthon's appreciation of Wagner and Primordial's (and Moonsorrow, Graveland, etc, etc) "homage" to Bathory's sound. You're grasping now. Bathory was original. It's OK to admit it.

Honestly the only band Bathory can be accussed of truly copying, or whatever, is Venom. Even then, the evidence doesn't support the case.

 

[Demilich]

How about the Manowar influence so many people talk about with the Viking-era Bathory albums?

 

[skeptik]

Bathory didn't copy Venom, but rather Motorhead and GBH.

 

[General Zod]

So Bathory's ugly, sloppy debut got the sound from Wagner's classical pieces? C'mon Greg. The Viking era albums have a distinct classical flavor (especially Twilight of the Gods), and even one song is a cover of a classical piece (not Wagner).

How can you possibly argue that Quorthon took no influence from Wagner when you've never even heard Wagner? With all due respect, arguing about a piece of music you've admittedly never even heard, is quite silly.

There's a difference between Quorthon's appreciation of Wagner and Primordial's (and Moonsorrow, Graveland, etc, etc) "homage" to Bathory's sound.

I never said there wasn't a difference.

You'd like to argue, "A black metal fan is not a black metal fan without knowing Bathory". Clearly, someone can be a fan of Black Metal without knowing Bathory. However, if you'd like to make that argument, than you must accept that one can not truly appreciate Bathory without appreciating his influences (be they Wagner, Venom, Manowar, etc.). After all, Bathory was not born in a musical vacuum.

Any by the way, I seriously doubt that either Primordial or Moonsorrow would label their respective careers a "homage to Bathory's sound".

You're grasping now.

Actually, it's you who's grasping. You've constructed an inconsistent argument and are now stuck trying to defend it.

Bathory was original. It's OK to admit it.

Holy crap... did you even read my original post? In that post, I refer to Bathory as:

- a "giant"
- a "trailblazer"
- as someone who had "broken new ground and inspired a generation of musicians..."
- as someone who "blazed a trail 1,000 miles long..."
- as someone who "forged new genres"

Could I possibly have given him any more credit? Even Erik, during a "One Rode to Asa Bay" induced masterbation frenzy, never attributed more to Bathory in a single post than I just did.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

I don't know about you, but I've never once cranked up my stereo to hear historical context.

Actually, historical context interests me a great deal. It helps put things into context. To me, metal is like one big living breathing organism that constantly mutates and evolves. The cells keep splitting and doubling etc. So within the confines of metal, it does interest me to trace things back to the originators.

I might like something modern, something that came about from the inspiration of an originator, and indeed I might even prefer it. In many cases, I'm sure I do. But surely we're talking more than something so trivial as just 'simple enjoyment', no? That seems to cheapen what it is we spend most of our lives looking for: more metal.

It's not necessarily about improving upon the DNA, it's about accumulation, right? Otherwise we would have all just stopped at the 10 album mark. So when one cell emerges from another, it doesn't negate the value of the originating cell. If anything, it should force you to dig deeper and better understand the events that were set in motion.

Metal is about being obsessive compulsive. Everyone should aim to be a scholar of how all the dots connect together. In the example of Primordial, I honestly believe I like them more simply because I have such a great appreciation for what came before them. And what makes it so enlightening is that the appreciation flows both ways. There's nothing wrong with starting with the clone and working your way backwards to the original.

Dr. JK PhD

 

[Demilich]

It's not necessarily about improving upon the DNA, it's about accumulation, right? Otherwise we would have all just stopped at the 10 album mark. So when one cell emerges from another, it doesn't negate the value of the originating cell. If anything, it should force you to dig deeper and better understand the events that were set in motion.

Dr. JK PhD

You hit the nail on the head here! This is EXACTLY what I've been doing in terms of the type of music I buy/spend my time investigating these days.

 

[skeptik]

Holy crap... did you even read my original post? In that post, I refer to Bathory as:

- a "giant"
- a "trailblazer"
- as someone who had "broken new ground and inspired a generation of musicians..."
- as someone who "blazed a trail 1,000 miles long..."
- as someone who "forged new genres"

Could I possibly have given him any more credit? Even Erik, during a "One Rode to Asa Bay" induced masterbation frenzy, never attributed more to Bathory in a single post than I just did.

I'm pulling a Guthrum today, but there've been quite a few laugh inducing moments in RC in the past 24 hours.

 

[Evil?]

Could I possibly have given him any more credit? Even Erik, during a "One Rode to Asa Bay" induced masterbation frenzy, never attributed more to Bathory in a single post than I just did.

Thats fucking great

 

[General Zod]

Actually, historical context interests me a great deal. It helps put things into context. To me, metal is like one big living breathing organism that constantly mutates and evolves. The cells keep splitting and doubling etc. So within the confines of metal, it does interest me to trace things back to the originators.

I don't disagree.

I might like something modern, something that came about from the inspiration of an originator, and indeed I might even prefer it. In many cases, I'm sure I do. But surely we're talking more than something so trivial as just 'simple enjoyment', no? That seems to cheapen what it is we spend most of our lives looking for: more metal.

I suppose summing it up as such may cheapen it. However, no matter how much we may wax poetic about it, is it really something more?

It's not necessarily about improving upon the DNA, it's about accumulation, right? Otherwise we would have all just stopped at the 10 album mark. So when one cell emerges from another, it doesn't negate the value of the originating cell. If anything, it should force you to dig deeper and better understand the events that were set in motion.

To some extant, it does negate it. If the first car you drove was a Ferrari, and you spent six months driving it everyday, and at the end of that six months someone gave you the keys to a Mustang, how much fun do you suspect driving that Mustang would be? However, if someone gave you a Mustang, before you ever even heard of a Ferrari, your opinion on that Mustang would be completely different.

Metal is about being obsessive compulsive. Everyone should aim to be a scholar of how all the dots connect together. In the example of Primordial, I honestly believe I like them more simply because I have such a great appreciation for what came before them. And what makes it so enlightening is that the appreciation flows both ways. There's nothing wrong with starting with the clone and working your way backwards to the original.

I can honestly say the opposite. Going back and exploring Bathory, has done nothing to impact how I perceive Primordial.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

I can honestly say the opposite. Going back and exploring Bathory, has done nothing to impact how I perceive Primordial.

I meant that being appreciative of Primordial, Burzum, Moonsorrow, Drudkh, or [insert any Bathory influenced artist] might help you appreciate early Bathory more. It's a 'works both ways' sorta thing.

 

[General Zod]

I meant that being appreciative of Primordial, Burzum, Moonsorrow, Drudkh, or [insert any Bathory influenced artist] might help you appreciate early Bathory more. It's a 'works both ways' sorta thing.

Fair enough. Interestingly, Bathory is probably the one band I truly dislike, that I've given the most opportunities to win me over. I probably revisit their material every four or five months.

Zod