Can we talk about mixing OH's not recording them....

[chadsxe]

I am noticing a lot of modern metal OH's really don't have to much low end in them. I have read numerous times that I basically should just suck from about 500 cycles down out of them. This I do and it helps give the perseptition of much brighter OH's. But even with that said I feel like most modern metal OH's appear to be further boosted in the highs. It seems like there is attack but not to much of low part the attack produces. This is gone to sound stupid but let me try.

When I Hpf at about 500 I still hear the low part of the attack which to me sounds like

Goshshshshshshshsh

What I am hearing on most modern metal records is some of that attack being tamed which is making for more of a

tshshshshshshsh

but at the same time the attack is still there. Very hard to explain in words.
Any thoughts?



Also, does anyone use some compression on the Oh's. Another thing I really notice is how smooth OH's are in modern metal records. They have a silky smooth sound to them.


Finally, what techniques do you guys use to control a dynamic OH take. Sometimes there are cymbal hits that poke out way to much as opposed to others. I am guessing automation is the prefered method.


Any suggestions?

Thanks

Chad

 

[Torniojaws]

From what I've heard here, the OH tracks are HEAVILY compressed in metal mixes. That's where the smoothness comes

 

[kaomao]

heavily compressed?
Are you sure? this way you'll have the hihat bleeding in the left channel and that's not what we'd like in a mix.
I mean you'll have the hihat both on the left and right in the stereo image.

 

[Ermz]

For most kits, compressing OHs I'm assuming will take the hat down, haha. I've always found HHs to be the loudest part of the kit. It's so annoying trying to deal with it. I always find it more a custom than function, mic'ing the HH.

About the OHs, I know what you're saying about the low-end part of the attack. As far as I hear, that's completely taken out. The hats always have alot of that Goshhh shshhh shhh sound. I think it conflicts with elements in the midrange. When cymbals sit up in the highs, and form a bed of sorts, after heavy compression, they're really not fighting with anything. I mean there's hardly anything up there with them, maybe a bit of the snare if the thing is bottom mic'ed, and some of the guitar top end.

As with all things it seems to just be about making everything sit in its own space. In metal records it seems that the OHs are usually compressed to a point where there's barely any transient attack, so you count on the BD to add to the intensity.

I think it's just a matter of us rearranging the kit to sound like what we want to hear it like, rather than what it actually is. A lot of elements are subtracted, so the whole works more smoothly.

 

[chadsxe]

So are you guys joking when you say the OH's are being heavily compressed. I was wondering if maybe the smoothness is do the mastering.

 

[Rick Powell]

OHs in metal!!!!

Kick and SNare high and the OHs low

 

[chadsxe]

OHs in metal!!!!

Kick and SNare high and the OHs low

Well that does seem to be the case a lot of the time but take a listen to what Machine did with lamb of god. Oh's are clear as day.

 

[kaomao]

I won't compress really that much, just taming the transient.
Say you really compress them heavily, then you got a very low signal, at this point you turn up the make up gain to have more volume, et voilà you got the hihat both on left and right.
I won't do that, I don't like killing the stereo image.
Better use a softer comp setting
anyway there's no rule, try what work for you best

 

[Ermz]

Well I tend to use a bigger ratio and higher threshold, instead of constant, soft compression. As kao is saying, it can bring some nasties out that you don't want to be hearing. As long as the OHs are smooth and not overly dynamic, it's fine. There's nothing worse than a crash cymbal jumping out at you every time it's hit though.

 

[kaomao]

Great I didn't think about bigger ratio and higher threshold !!
I'll try it moony!

 

[MX582]

i compress my overheads just a little so like you guys said they smooth out..also i was wondering what yall try to keep and try not to keep in the over heads? like for example i try to have as little bass and snare in my overheads because it takes away from the over all attack, i just try to keep cymbals only in the overheads with as little of the rest of the drum set as possible. did any of you see that video with machine during the recording of eighteen visions cd where he recorded drums and cymbals seperatly? i thought that was pretty interesting but it must be a bitch for the drummer.

 

[nwright]

Haha, I HP'd the OH's at around 600Hz on my bands demo. The cymbals are a bit transient, but I needed to eliminate some of the drum bleed to use Drumagog along with the natural drum tones. I tried that thing that Drumagog does where it can help eliminate the drums in the OH's, but it sounded too artificial to my ears, and I couldn't get it to work. cutting @ 600Hz worked out the best to my inexperienced methods.

 

[Splat88]

I high pass OHs at 700Hz - 1000Hz. To get the perception of more high end, I remove a big chunk out of 2500 HZ with a q of about 4 or so using Waves Q10. This works very very well.

This makes it sound like the extreme highs are being boosted, but they are not in reality. I never like to boost frequencies. I find that cutting them will create the holes I am looking for.

I also limit the overheads so that only the snare gets tamed severly. It does not affect the cymbal tone in any way.

 

[CJWall]

I am noticing a lot of modern metal OH's really don't have to much low end in them. I have read numerous times that I basically should just suck from about 500 cycles down out of them. This I do and it helps give the perseptition of much brighter OH's. But even with that said I feel like most modern metal OH's appear to be further boosted in the highs. It seems like there is attack but not to much of low part the attack produces. This is gone to sound stupid but let me try.

When I Hpf at about 500 I still hear the low part of the attack which to me sounds like

Goshshshshshshshsh

What I am hearing on most modern metal records is some of that attack being tamed which is making for more of a

tshshshshshshsh

but at the same time the attack is still there. Very hard to explain in words.
Any thoughts?



Also, does anyone use some compression on the Oh's. Another thing I really notice is how smooth OH's are in modern metal records. They have a silky smooth sound to them.


Finally, what techniques do you guys use to control a dynamic OH take. Sometimes there are cymbal hits that poke out way to much as opposed to others. I am guessing automation is the prefered method.


Any suggestions?

Thanks

Chad

I usually HP around 500-800hz, this will clean up the entire image of the OH's as you know. From there, I'll throw say, C1 on the overheads; not compressing too much, just enough too keep everything consistent sounding and enough to kill a bit of the 'goshhgggoshhh' sound. When you start compressing too much you'll get alot of nasty bleed/noise coming through that won't do much but muddy up your mix..

Some subtle EQ in the 5.5k-12k range might help you achieve this as well, as always, it depends on the source. I too sometimes notch a fairly narrow cut somewhere in the 1.8k-2.5k area for an additional percepted boost in the highs.

I actually like what OH's can add to the toms and sometimes snare though, you get very subtle but cool 'air' to the kit, just adds to the intensity for me.. not always, but, you get the idea.

Charlie

 

[Sinister Mephisto]

Well that does seem to be the case a lot of the time but take a listen to what Machine did with lamb of god. Oh's are clear as day.

Yes but they were recorded seperatly. Also, I get weird sounds when I compress my cymbals, so I don't do it. I do limit them though, if you call that compression then it might be a good idea. Maybe good use of compression could work. I'll have to work harder at it.

 

[chadsxe]

Wow that cut somewhere in the 1.8k-2.5k range really helps give the idea the highs have been boosted. Good stuff. Now if I can just figure out how to smooth them I am good to go.

 

[iekobrid]

Wow that cut somewhere in the 1.8k-2.5k range really helps give the idea the highs have been boosted.

Are you adjusting the OH's relative volume in the mix as well when you do that, like make-up gain when compressing, or just the EQ cut and that's it?

 

[Seizure.]

I usually HP around 500-800hz, this will clean up the entire image of the OH's as you know. From there, I'll throw say, C1 on the overheads; not compressing too much, just enough too keep everything consistent sounding and enough to kill a bit of the 'goshhgggoshhh' sound. When you start compressing too much you'll get alot of nasty bleed/noise coming through that won't do much but muddy up your mix..
Charlie

Hey dude, what settings would you use to kill the goossshhhhhh sound because you would probably get even more when compressing right?

 

[tnelson494]

Do you guys buss your drums down or do you send the individual parts of the kit to a master out?

 

[MKS]

I think one problem I've noticed, is drummers don't close the hats enough. They like to leave them open and ringy. That might be fun to play but sucks when recording IMHO.

I'm also from the Bohnam school of thought. Cymbals are supplemental. Drums are always primary. I've recently made an effort to play lighter on my cymbals than my drum hits.