Challenge to Americans

[infoterror]

Our political system is based on liberal democracy, multiculturalism, and personal materialism (individualism).

Now, looking over the past 5000 or so years of history, please name:

(1) A democracy that did not go into decline following its adoption of democracy, and end up a third-world dictatorship.

(2) A multiculture that did not result in a hybrid ethnicity with less aptitute for cultural and intellectual pursuits than its ingredient ethnicities.

(3) A culture based on individualism that did not rapidly lose sight of reality and collapse.

I'd love to hear your answers (but I know you cannot answer this one).

Rome fell, and the USA is falling, because we have nothing we agree on and are dedicated to selfishness and illusion.

You either figure this out and counteract it, or lie back passively and try to enjoy the collapse.

http://forums.chron.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tsn=1&tid=339&webtag=hc-politics

 

[Norsemaiden]

Even those who most advocate democracy, like British wartime Prime Minister Winston Churchill, know that it is seriously flawed. Quote: "the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

He also cynically pointed out that "Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth, but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing ever happened". Quite an admission!

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

Our political system is based on liberal democracy, multiculturalism, and personal materialism (individualism).

Now, looking over the past 5000 or so years of history, please name:

(1) A democracy that did not go into decline following its adoption of democracy, and end up a third-world dictatorship.

(2) A multiculture that did not result in a hybrid ethnicity with less aptitute for cultural and intellectual pursuits than its ingredient ethnicities.

(3) A culture based on individualism that did not rapidly lose sight of reality and collapse.

I'd love to hear your answers (but I know you cannot answer this one).

Rome fell, and the USA is falling, because we have nothing we agree on and are dedicated to selfishness and illusion.

You either figure this out and counteract it, or lie back passively and try to enjoy the collapse.

http://forums.chron.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tsn=1&tid=339&webtag=hc-politics

the way this is written looks like it was written by Norsemaiden and i meant that as a compliment to both of you

 

[infoterror]

We conspire against ourselves in all sorts of ways, most of which are so familiar that they seem almost like common sense. The root problem is that all of our decisions go into a rational machinery, a social calculus of "benefit." Thus, the infamous "cost-benefit analysis." So we think, "If I clear-cut this forest I can sell the timber and plant soybeans for export to China, a very profitable move. But if I cut down the forest we may not have air to breathe or a stable climate in the future. Animals will be deprived of habitat. Species may go extinct. Oh, fuck it, why should my forest be responsible for the future when it can be profitable now?"

This is not the exclusive logic of corporate capitalists, although it was certainly the logic of factory trawlers when they stripped the Atlantic of cod from Nova Scotia to the Chesapeake, a grave crime against the cod (but who the hell ever thinks about what the ugly-mug cod need?), humanity, and the future. This is also the logic of Brazil's left-wing government led by Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. Brazil's deforestation of the Amazon increased by 40 percent last year alone. To be sure, President da Silva's rationale involved the importance of a cash crop to feed the urban poor. "The Amazon is not untouchable," da Silva told The New York Times. This, obviously, places the burden of feeding the poor squarely on the backs of parrots and leopards. Meanwhile, Brazilian agribusiness kings like Blairo Maggi make conflict of interest a virtual requirement for governance. Not only is Maggi owner of one of the largest soybean production and export companies in Brazil, he is also the governor of the state of Mato Grosso ("dense jungle"). Thanks to the "prosperity" he brings, the Amazon will soon be just another fantastical postmodern location, so familiar to North Americans, where the names of places no longer have any relationship to what's actually in them. Mato Grosso will refer to a place that is no more than a factory for exchange value in a soybean monoculture, just as Illinois is a "prairie state" with 1/10 of 1 percent of its original prairie remaining. Of course, once the original plant/animal/human inhabitants are gone, we wax sentimental. The things we slaughter become our heritage. We wear feathers in our hair and go to summer powwows.

Sotoligarchy by Curtis White

 

[Justin S.]

I find the framing of the question, and the assertions, far too broad and simplistic- but Ive read your posts before (full elaborations) and understand the need for brevity here. The follwing line does stick out though:

You either figure this out and counteract it, or lie back passively and try to enjoy the collapse.

I am still confused how you can hold on to ideas of "answer", "action", "change" at this stage. I would think that a critical reading of history points not to Nietzschean supermen, but a massive web of forces, most of which have nothing to do with conscious determination or will.

The fundamental problem, a complete neglect for even the question of the meaning of being, is not a matter of mere politics, economy, or individual action.

 

[speed]

I find the framing of the question, and the assertions, far too broad and simplistic- but Ive read your posts before (full elaborations) and understand the need for brevity here. The follwing line does stick out though:



I am still confused how you can hold on to ideas of "answer", "action", "change" at this stage. I would think that a critical reading of history points not to Nietzschean supermen, but a massive web of forces, most of which have nothing to do with conscious determination or will.

The fundamental problem, a complete neglect for even the question of the meaning of being, is not a matter of mere politics, economy, or individual action.

Excellent comments Justin S. Theres no question our country is in decline, but the why, and how to fix it, are incomprehensible questions. There are just so many factors.

Nietszch"s Superman is his weakest, most romantic creation, and is one suited in my mind, for the cultural and artistic sphere, and nothing more.

Oswald Spengler did a fantastic job covering almost everything in regards to the decline of a civilization: from math and the economy to culture and music. He even predicted the decline of America and Europe to the "Red and Yellow Peoples" because we began teaching them our technology, educating them etc, instead of keeping such things secret as we did in the past.

I still dont get the individualistic comment infoterror--especially coming from such a unique individual as yourself. Every society that has had greater individual freedoms, has generally been on top for the last 600 years, plus, one could argue the same in Classical times with the Greeks and Romans. The problem is individual freedoms without a sense of community as we are experiencing in America today. But god, the causes of this are so numerous, its hard to pinpoint or correct: everything from zoning, to the availability of land, freddie mac, etc.

 

[s_a_o]

Well, this isn't a pure democracy. It's a republic with democratic principles. Definitely not a direct, pure democracy. That would be dangerous, because absolutely nothing would be accomplished due to the sheer size of the population.

I don't think that the USA is falling. As long as people keep coming into the nation from other countries, that is, immigrating here, there will be a USA. I mean, I don't agree with the government, but I think that every government is flawwed, simply because of human nature. There are cycles, and I think that everything will keep changing, for the better or for the worse.

I don't know. The USA could fall, but if it does, there are still societies to live in that are as good as, or even much better than the United States.

 

[speed]

Well, this isn't a pure democracy. It's a republic with democratic principles. Definitely not a direct, pure democracy. That would be dangerous, because absolutely nothing would be accomplished due to the sheer size of the population.

I don't think that the USA is falling. As long as people keep coming into the nation from other countries, that is, immigrating here, there will be a USA. I mean, I don't agree with the government, but I think that every government is flawwed, simply because of human nature. There are cycles, and I think that everything will keep changing, for the better or for the worse.

I don't know. The USA could fall, but if it does, there are still societies to live in that are as good as, or even much better than the United States.

I dont think he means fall, rather, become a less important country. Personally, I think we'll become quite like Britain after WWII.

 

[Hamock]

The question depends on how you're defining democracy.

 

[infoterror]

I still dont get the individualistic comment infoterror--especially coming from such a unique individual as yourself. Every society that has had greater individual freedoms, has generally been on top for the last 600 years, plus, one could argue the same in Classical times with the Greeks and Romans. The problem is individual freedoms without a sense of community as we are experiencing in America today.

Individualism, in a philosophical sense, means individual above all else and that the individual is the means through which one transacts and conceptualizes philosophy. A subtle but fundamental difference...

 

[speed]

Individualism, in a philosophical sense, means individual above all else and that the individual is the means through which one transacts and conceptualizes philosophy. A subtle but fundamental difference...

Yes, well I think the both of us have a tendency to generalize at times...Because, I do think the AMerican individual has lost his/her categorical imperative; his/her sense of duty to the community, to neighbors, to being a good citizen.

 

[infoterror]

Yes, well I think the both of us have a tendency to generalize at times...Because, I do think the AMerican individual has lost his/her categorical imperative; his/her sense of duty to the community, to neighbors, to being a good citizen.

I don't think any person has. However, the question is how they interpret that.

"I'm a good citizen because I leave my neighbor alone." (105 IQ pts)

vs

"I'm a good citizen because I organize with my neighbors to have a better holistic adaptation to reality for civilization." (160 IQ pts)

:Smokin:

 

[MetalNub]

If we could get people to turn off their TV's for a few months they might wake up from the consumer dream they are in. It's amazing how quickly the corporations hold on you fades when they can't constantly bombard you with pretty flashing lights all day long.

The first world countries exist and thrive on the pain and suffering of third world countries. Our need for shit and the cheapest shit we can buy is all due to exploited people. Bleh, I can't get started. I just wish people would wake the hell up and see what kind of destruction we are causing. Ya that means you too England, France, Germany. America get hated on but the others are no better. Hell we got a whole country "America" full of people that hate France because the TV told them too. I feel that the US and France don't get along cause we are like brothers. We are very much alike. We don't want people in our country that can't speak the language. We are proud of our heritage and so on. But look at the youth of France protesting in huge numbers, that's a beautiful sight. You're not going to see that in America because if we aren't rich in this country we are told that it's our fault. We didn't work hard enough or some shit. Ok, that all, I really can't get started or I'll write all day.


I would like to say that america or any country with the exception of maybe early Iceland has never really had a democracy.

 

[Miss*Li]

Now, looking over the past 5000 or so years of history, please name:

(1) A democracy that did not go into decline following its adoption of democracy, and end up a third-world dictatorship.

(2) A multiculture that did not result in a hybrid ethnicity with less aptitute for cultural and intellectual pursuits than its ingredient ethnicities.

(3) A culture based on individualism that did not rapidly lose sight of reality and collapse.

Here's my answers:

(1) GERMANY - because its democracy works, and makes all around it work. And definitely is not a dictatorship anymore, as well as a third-world country.

(2) THE NETHERLANDS OR CANADA - Although a great mixture of ethnicities, co-inhabits.

(3) this one is tough...but Luxemburg is a good answer. oh, and the countries of ex-USSER are the fastest developing countries in Europe, and are growing from scratch.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

im moving to europe and taking the easy way out. america wont be missed, except for the sports. (god i love american sports!). europe has a better future for sure, better food without question, prettier women and offers a much easier, flexible, working life with emphasis on LIFE.

 

[speed]

im moving to europe and taking the easy way out. america wont be missed, except for the sports. (god i love american sports!). europe has a better future for sure, better food without question, prettier women and offers a much easier, flexible, working life with emphasis on LIFE.

And how will you obtain employment? I'd like to know! Seriously, Ive tried.

I think Economically Europe may be in as bad or worse a situation as the US. Why? Well Europe is lagging way way behind in research, most fields of science, technology and innovation. Plus, it has a huge aging population dependent on social services.

On the plus side, it does however have such a higher standard of living of life, low reliance on cars, and energy comparatively, plus, its citizens are not dependent on assets and wealth like the US populace. Thus, when stocks crash, and interest rates rise, most Europeans do not have mortgages or most of their money in mutual funds etc.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

easy: my girlfriend is italian, so i can get a visa if we get engaged, which we probably will.

 

[Dän]

And how will you obtain employment? I'd like to know! Seriously, Ive tried.

I think Economically Europe may be in as bad or worse a situation as the US. Why? Well Europe is lagging way way behind in research, most fields of science, technology and innovation. Plus, it has a huge aging population dependent on social services.

On the plus side, it does however have such a higher standard of living of life, low reliance on cars, and energy comparatively, plus, its citizens are not dependent on assets and wealth like the US populace. Thus, when stocks crash, and interest rates rise, most Europeans do not have mortgages or most of their money in mutual funds etc.

Yes, plus most eurpoean goverments ie/ Germany, France, Denamrk etc... do go a long way to help out their citizens with welfare. I think denmark is one of the highest taxed nations around but you can see a lot of that money going back into the people who pay the taxes.

i do feel that a problem facing Europe and the EU is the issue of immigration, look at someone like Le Pen who did excepcionally well in the last French election, or the Italian dude who just lost, there is certialy a movement towards tighter immigration laws in certian european nations, and, to an extent, i can understand why

 

[Neith]

Yes, plus most eurpoean goverments ie/ Germany, France, Denamrk etc... do go a long way to help out their citizens with welfare. I think denmark is one of the highest taxed nations around but you can see a lot of that money going back into the people who pay the taxes.

Many of the countries with higher tax in european such as those listed and also Sweden, Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg have much higher wages to correspond with the high taxes and the generally higher expenses of everyday living. They generally have less crime, and a higher standard of living all round. I have never even heard of someone from Sweden who doesn't enjoy living there (I'm sure there are loads though) which I think says a hell of a lot. Lucky people!

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

Well, this isn't a pure democracy. It's a republic with democratic principles. Definitely not a direct, pure democracy.

majority rule = minority getting trampled
there's too many christians here
if we really did have a "true" "democracy" then the president would turn into "the Protestant Pope"