Classical guys, your help would be much appreciated - how do record brass band?

[Metaltastic]

Hey dudes, my Dad plays in a Civil War reenactment brass band, and he just gave me a ridiculous offer - if I'd be willing to record them "for free", he'll buy all the gear I need for it! (and it'd also be a graduation present). Within reason of course, figure a budget of ~$1500, but I'm thinking I'll pick up a Mackie Onyx 400F (should be able to find one for around $500), and so that leaves ~$1k for mics. So what do you suggest?

Here's their website (yes I know it's dated, what're ya gonna do, they're old ) and here's a youtube video of their last recording (it's a studio recording with a video montage of pics)

 

[Metaltastic]

And specifically, I'm looking for suggestions not only on mic selection and placement, but also maybe on how the band should be arranged (cuz it'd be a live recording of course) and, well, anything else!

 

[ahjteam]

to be honest: ask gearslutz

 

[Ben Johnson]

Lasse knows.

 

[paladin shredder]

where are you planning on recording them at?

 

[LydonB]

Shure KSM44 in blumlein.

IF you had the budget, I would say some Royers in blumlein, but the KSM44's will kick ass. If I can dig them up I would be willing to post my recordings of my former schools (terrible) brass ensemble.

As far as seating arrangements, I would see how they are comfortable. If things are weird, re-arrange them if necessary.

Also, since brass can be a pain in terms of dynamics (freaking trumpets!) I would make sure the microphones are not terribly close. But also, if you choose to do blumlein, make sure they are not too far away because it will be too roomy, and with a shitty sounding room...well...

The awesome thing with blumlein is that its localization is freaking awesome if you have it set up right. You just have to play with placement a little.

If possible, I would absolutely recommend going to a rehearsal.

 

[KeithTidd]

i would just set up a nice stereo pair in a good sounding room and record them like that.

 

[LydonB]

i would just set up a nice stereo pair in a good sounding room and record them like that.

Stereo pair for live recordings kick so much ass. Everyone thinks that you need to throw up 200 microphones to get a good recording, but that is overkill most of the time.

 

[Ermz]

You would be better off using your budget to rent some gear for the day. You could opt to go a nice pair of Ribbon microphones in Blumlein configuration with a transparent stereo preamp to dull the harshness of the brass. Alternatively you could opt to go for transparent condensers in XY or ORTF configuration. Then use spot mics on individual sections of the ensemble to lift certain sections as needed.

The mics you could be looking at here are:

Royer R-122 (for ye ol' Blumlein and no chance of blowing it with phantom)
Neumann M150 (most commonly used on the Decca Tree, but should work as a spaced or ORTF pair)
Neumann KM184 (for spot mic'ing)

For mic preamps, this one is an ideal candidate: http://www.mil-media.com/hv-3d.html

 

[LydonB]

You would be better off using your budget to rent some gear for the day. You could opt to go a nice pair of Ribbon microphones in Blumlein configuration with a transparent stereo preamp to dull the harshness of the brass. Alternatively you could opt to go for transparent condensers in XY or ORTF configuration. Then use spot mics on individual sections of the ensemble to lift certain sections as needed.

Mic placement would be more beneficial and practical than using a special mic pre to tame the harshness of the brass.

 

[Ermz]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was implying that the Ribbon microphones would tame the harshness of the brass, as opposed to using something more transparent like condensers. The mic pre is just something to boost clean gain and retain the dynamics and transient structure of the material that's being recorded. I would without a doubt rent at least 2 channels of something good to use for the main stereo pair. The spot mics aren't so crucial.

 

[Metaltastic]

Thanks guys! Ermz, yeah, rental occurred to me as probably the better option, and the fact is I really wouldn't have much use for these kind of mics after the recording (or to put it another way, I'd rather have a new guitar ) - I'd be a little wary of what the mics had gone through from previous renters, but I can only hope that when you get to that caliber people know to take care of them.

So Blumlein huh? What about MS? (or good ol' ORTF/XY). I know about them all in theory, but have very little experience as to the sonic differences. And I dunno, my experience with ribbons (well, one ribbon, the beyerdynamic M160) is that they're really dull sounding; for capturing a live acoustic performance, you really think Royers would work well as the main stereo pair?

 

[LydonB]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was implying that the Ribbon microphones would tame the harshness of the brass, as opposed to using something more transparent like condensers. The mic pre is just something to boost clean gain and retain the dynamics and transient structure of the material that's being recorded. I would without a doubt rent at least 2 channels of something good to use for the main stereo pair. The spot mics aren't so crucial.

Ok, I gotcha!

 

[LydonB]

Thanks guys! Ermz, yeah, rental occurred to me as probably the better option, and the fact is I really wouldn't have much use for these kind of mics after the recording (or to put it another way, I'd rather have a new guitar ) - I'd be a little wary of what the mics had gone through from previous renters, but I can only hope that when you get to that caliber people know to take care of them.

So Blumlein huh? What about MS? (or good ol' ORTF/XY). I know about them all in theory, but have very little experience as to the sonic differences. And I dunno, my experience with ribbons (well, one ribbon, the beyerdynamic M160) is that they're really dull sounding; for capturing a live acoustic performance, you really think Royers would work well as the main stereo pair?

Ribbons on brass are fantastic.

I would stay away from MS unless you have a really good sounding room.

ORTF could work well depending on how the ensemble is arranged. Then using a stereo pair of KM 184's, Beyerdynamic MC930 or renting some Schoeps would be promising.

I wouldn't use XY as it is very center focused...I have never been a fan of it though.

Blumlein is my absolute favorite stereo micing technique. It really makes the listener feel like they are in the audience listening to the ensemble perform. AT least that is how I think it should be. If set up correctly, blumlein will give a great stereo spread and good localization so you can tell where each instrument is within the stereo field. The ribbons would be awesome for this technique. But if you can't get a hold of ribbons, two KSM44's would work very well. They are good all around mics as well so you would be able to use them in many different ways aside from this recording.

But with live recordings, the number one thing to focus on is microphone placement, but that should be with any recording, really. Like I said before, if you can, go to rehearsals and get an idea of how they set up so you can get an idea of how to record them and capture the performance accurately for the listener.

 

[spioraid]

FRIGGIN A DUDE!!!! I know Federal City! I'm a good GOOD friend with their founder, Jari. Insane man! Lemme know if I can help at all!

 

[Metaltastic]

Hahaha, holy shit dude, that is absolutely nuts, though I guess I should've figured since you're into the reenactment scene! I'll PM you shortly!

BlackestEyes, thanks a lot for the tips dude, much appreciated (and anyone else of course feel free to chime in) - how do you feel the KSM44's stack up against C414's? (especially the B-XLS, that seems like it'd be better suited to brass than the B-XL II) I always thought they were a pretty big standard in this kind of recording.

 

[GeertSamuel]

Well. I've been to recording sessions of Black Dyke Band ( UK, played with Beatles, Tori Amos and more ), Cory Band (Wales). I occassionally design CD covers for them.
And for about 30 to 40% of my clients are in the UK Brass Band scene. Each year my dad organizes this Holland Brass Festival. Last year there were DVD & Audio recordings.
I can get you hi-res photos where you can see mic placements. I still know there were around 10-16 mics placed. Mostly a stereo pair on all sections. 1st row cornets, 2nd row cornets, Tuba's, Euphoniums...

Well let me know if you have interest in some photos, then I can have a look and send you some..

 

[Metaltastic]

Dude, that would be unbelievably helpful if you could!

 

[GeertSamuel]

Now uploading. I've zipped 8 photos. All hi-resolution.
As going for mics..they have shit load of expensive mics.....

Our upcoming album actually will have a metal Brass Band collission .. We've wrote a part on our end and the rest is being composed by one of the Associated Composers from the Black Dyke Band... will be mega fun..

 

[GeertSamuel]

Here you go:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/748885/HBF Photos 08.zip