Clayman, double tracking and just phase..

broken81

broken81

Used by Protools
Dec 26, 2005
1,593
1
38
Detroit, MI
Ok yesterday i tracked a band my first real project outside of my band.

Well i attempted to do the clayman mic technique and i set up 2 channels and i put a plugin on one channel to flip phase to try and setup mics with white noise from amp and headphones. My preamps don't have phase switch so i used a plugin not sure if this is wrong??

Well i tried a few different times and i could not get anything usable. Everything phased and 2 mics (on axis and off axis) were sounding so thin together. Well if i flipped the phase back on it would be so bass boomy and like no high end. I tried for like an hour to get something usable but no luck....

Should i be just listening to white noise and placing mics with no phase flipped?
Or any other help on this would be so helpfull.....


Also i set up 2 mics one mic on one speaker (bottom right) and another mic on another speaker (top left)of a 4x12. I figured i could record 2 different speakers at the same time. Errrrrrrrrrr wrong i was into the phase thing again and thin sounding guitar.

I just really need some help with setting up mics to beat this phase thing i can't seem to get past:mad:

Also if i go back to record guitar again now (might lay 1 more track with diff amp) and i setup mic on cabinet is it gonna pose as a big problem if i don't have same mic position like am i gonna run into phase again??
 
I'll add that to the list. Nitro already wants me to do a "precision tuning guide" which for some stupid reason, I agreed to. Now I've just gotta find the time!

:lol:
 
broken81 said:
Ok yesterday i tracked a band my first real project outside of my band.

Well i attempted to do the clayman mic technique and i set up 2 channels and i put a plugin on one channel to flip phase to try and setup mics with white noise from amp and headphones. My preamps don't have phase switch so i used a plugin not sure if this is wrong??

Well i tried a few different times and i could not get anything usable. Everything phased and 2 mics (on axis and off axis) were sounding so thin together. Well if i flipped the phase back on it would be so bass boomy and like no high end. I tried for like an hour to get something usable but no luck....

Should i be just listening to white noise and placing mics with no phase flipped?
Or any other help on this would be so helpfull.....


Also i set up 2 mics one mic on one speaker (bottom right) and another mic on another speaker (top left)of a 4x12. I figured i could record 2 different speakers at the same time. Errrrrrrrrrr wrong i was into the phase thing again and thin sounding guitar.

I just really need some help with setting up mics to beat this phase thing i can't seem to get past:mad:

Also if i go back to record guitar again now (might lay 1 more track with diff amp) and i setup mic on cabinet is it gonna pose as a big problem if i don't have same mic position like am i gonna run into phase again??
Click to expand...
dude
i use the clayman style method quite consistently and usually
after recording the two mics, the sound together is phased and it sounds thin and crap
but after i phase reverse one track (i usually do it to the mic more off axis than the other) then i get a bass boomy sound which i then EQ to sound much better
your experience sounds like its being phase reversed already:err: :Smokin:
 
mmmmmm so you just flip a phase after recorded and use like that.

What am i looking for when setting up mics with white noise?? Do i want a phase flipped on one mic to position 2 mics and find quietest point right??

Also what about going back to record another guitar track like a few days later and mic is in different position, It can possibly phase still huh? And thats would just end up being trial and error finding working position again.

Also does anybody mic more than 1 speaker at a time with different mics?? How do you go about setting this up (white noise thing again maybe?) Cause like i stated in first post i was just getting phase problems and i tried like 6 different positions. I did use 2 different preamps though one was through ada8000 via lightpipe to digi002 and other was mixing board out into back of digi002. Don't know if that would even mater though but thought i would throw it out there just in case.
 
On the going back after a few days issue: Mark your micing points with tape. Can be seen on live applications and works also well when recording.

I've got a Tutorial DVD that came with a recording magazine about guitar recording were they mic'd different speakers of a cab. The engineer just flipped the phase on the console (an SSL o_O ) if necessary and also showed the difference in sound. Can't remember if changed mic-positions millimeter-wise before doing that though. At least there was nothing said about white noise or stuff...
 
broken81 said:
Also does anybody mic more than 1 speaker at a time with different mics?? How do you go about setting this up?
Click to expand...


Yeah I usually mic the top right and bottom left. 57 on the top 609 of axis on the bottom.

Sometimes I even throw another mic on there just for the room sound. Usually not to many issues there because it's usally set further back than the 57 or 609.

You could also try moving the mics in/out.


I dunno really it's just trial and error for me.
 
HeadCrusher said:
On the going back after a few days issue: Mark your micing points with tape. Can be seen on live applications and works also well when recording.
Click to expand...


Id avoid doing this. believe it or not it can affect the sound. Ive heard of some fairly pro people doing this and then spending time trying to find the cause of this extra sound on the mic which turns out to be caused by the tape!!

I think Oz when youve written your guide to micing and your precision tuning guide you should put them togeather with the drum recording guide you did on here that I still have saved to my favorites and just publish the lot and get some cash back!!
 
broken81 said:
mmmmmm so you just flip a phase after recorded and use like that.

What am i looking for when setting up mics with white noise?? Do i want a phase flipped on one mic to position 2 mics and find quietest point right??

Also what about going back to record another guitar track like a few days later and mic is in different position, It can possibly phase still huh? And thats would just end up being trial and error finding working position again.

Also does anybody mic more than 1 speaker at a time with different mics?? How do you go about setting this up (white noise thing again maybe?) Cause like i stated in first post i was just getting phase problems and i tried like 6 different positions. I did use 2 different preamps though one was through ada8000 via lightpipe to digi002 and other was mixing board out into back of digi002. Don't know if that would even mater though but thought i would throw it out there just in case.
Click to expand...
i'd be quite hard to do to find the same positions after a couple of days via trial and error. that same problem has caused my bands songs to have quite different guitar tones a lot of the time
when i record the guitars, i dont use the clayman style how its supposed to be used
usually i have one on axis quite close to the grill cloth and the 2nd on a 45 degree angle but about a cm behind the first mic, so this gives me the sound i want (not particularly the clayman sound)
but i still dont understand how this phase problem of yours is happening
i have both mics recorded into seperate (but the same type) preamps, and then into my DAw>computer. i then phase reverse the 2nd mic/track in cubase and then EQ to get the actual sound
when recording the two tracks
the mic is either phased, or not phased, so its just the position that must be sorted (assumingly)
 
I would be careful with miking 2 different speakers in a 4x12 cab. The phase issues can be much worse than using the clayman method. If your recording a band and you don't have a lot of time then don't worry about experimenting with new techniques since it will just give you headaches in the end. Go with what works and what you know inside and out.
 
I've never run into an issue with phase using this technique. Perhaps a mic or cable has been wired backwards? I remember having to re-solder an i5 connector fresh out of the box because some dope wired it up wrong.

If it's sounding thin & shrill, yeah, you're out. When you flip phase & it's muddy, first try separting the mics by about 6 db with the bright one louder THEN eq.

But if you're having phase issues, you've either got something miswired, or you're setting the mics up wrong. Don't worry if you don't get this correct right from the the get-go. It's a difficult technique to master.

-0z-
 
yea i ended up just running a e609 silver and actually came out great but I'm determined to get this technique down also just to have in the bag of tricks:headbang:

its weired i chose the e609 over the 57 just sounded more bright and still had nice full sound. Seems Ive been getting kinda a muddy tone with 57. Probably my placement though.

Yea when i tried to mic 2 different speakers with 1 mic each of the 4x12 they were 2 different kind. one was a v30 and other a g12t75. Thought i would throw that out there.

I will post some samples of music soon........
 
Why is this called the Clayman mic technique? This was being done before they were born. Probably 1 out of every 3 cd's you have heard in your life does this on 1 or more instruments. You can use amp hiss or feed it pink or white noise
As with any 2 mic setup your combining 2 sounds together. You can go all day and setup a full spectrum sound but that, in no way, assures a tone you like because both sounds have to make *Your favorite tone. Blue may be your favorite color and red may be your 2nd favorite, but when you mix those 2 --it doesnt mean a good color will result. Its moot whether they are in phase or not if the sound isnt good. Because the finished sound is the sum of its parts..that does not necessarily mean each part sounds good on it own. So you may have to forget about what you think is good through 1 mic when dialing in your sound and placing the mics.

This is why most engineers opt for the second mic to only be a very small supplement to the main mic(very low in volume) instead of 2 at full.

If you cant get it going good, what you can try is using something more than just flipping the phase. You can use a box or plugin that goes everywhere inbetween. If you dont have such a device just nudge the track a few samples at a time. The sound should dramtically change with every nudge giving you many more combinations to choose from

good luck and dont think everyone else doesnt have the same problem your having..this can be a bitch
 
I agree with the time align comment. Even though it's a good skill to have to perfectly position mics so they're in phase, you'd probably end up fine tuning by nudging the regions anyway. I haven't tried dual miking a cab yet, but I'd set one mic up at a time, find a position I like the sound of, listen to each solo'd, record, then worry about phase issues afterwards. It's easy to hear phase changes if you nudge a region one sample at time, and it's easiest to find the sweet spot when listening to the amp's self noise.

We're using DAWs, people! Take advantage of the precise tools we have at our disposal! ;)
 
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