Click or not to click?

[Matt Crooks]

forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "drag and lift"? thanks.

INAB, I think he means slightly changing the click tempo for different sections of the song. For example, bumping the chorus up a couple of BPM or dropping the bridge a few BPM. If a band doesn't write to a click, some parts may naturally need to be slightly faster or slower than other parts of the song.

 

[James Murphy]

click... it is quite easy to program a click in such a way as to let the music "breath" while allowing for much easier editing. and a solid tight feel. for some bands all i need to do is what Andy mentioned... lower the bpm a bit here, raise it a bit there, to push and pull (lift and drag) the various parts a bit. for instance raising the chorus a few bpm each time it comes up in the arrangement can raise the exitement level for what is, arguably, the most important part of the song. for other bands i'm programming totally different tempos and/or meters for every part. more and more i am less willing to work with metal bands that don't use a click.

 

[Carrier Flux]

click... it is quite easy to program a click in such a way as to let the music "breath" while allowing for much easier editing. and a solid tight feel. for some bands all i need to do is what Andy mentioned... lower the bpm a bit here, raise it a bit there, to push and pull (lift and drag) the various parts a bit. for instance raising the chorus a few bpm each time it comes up in the arrangement can raise the exitement level for what is, arguably, the most important part of the song. for other bands i'm programming totally different tempos and/or meters for every part. more and more i am less willing to work with metal bands that don't use a click.

wow interesting stuff. I never really thought of using varied tempos for anything other than very apparent transitions in songs. I'm going to have to start experimenting with that.

 

[NK]

My comment above was more geared towards having a click that is one tempo all the way through a song which can often be an uncomfortable compromise. The first tme I used a programmed (as in variable) click was on the first Lynch Mob album. It really worked very well, but back in those days it took quote a long time to do. I seem to remember the most effective way was beat by beat, rather than adjusting the tempos as different sections clicked in. Also, we'd often increase/decrease the tempos slowly to make the flow feel as natural as possible, rather than lurching into a section as it kicked in. If I remember correctly we split the songs into bars of 1/4 and that way had complete control over when and where the changes could start to occur. Fortunately there were no meter changes..



Neil K.

 

[dreamcatcher]

click... it is quite easy to program a click in such a way as to let the music "breath" while allowing for much easier editing.

Yeah, I am glad for the ease of doing this nowadays. I didn't mean for my little reminiscence to stir shit up.

 

[kev]

How do you go about programming a click? In something like cubase? Do you save it to a file?

 

[~BURNY~]

Just create a tempo track.

 

[Carrier Flux]

How do you go about programming a click? In something like cubase? Do you save it to a file?

many ways.

my preferred method:

load up a battery [drum sampler pluggin/program] track in your DAW.
find a sample that has some bite to it. like *ehem* a cowbell *cough*. or whatever.
create a midi track and output the signal to the battery track.
using the note that the sample you want triggered is on, write out a pattern, as simple as one note on every quarter note, or more complicated if that helps.

season to taste by adding extra drums, accented beats by varying velocity etc. but the simple way works just fine for many applications.

 

[Kazrog]

I kicked the original drummer out of my band (years ago, not the one on our most recent CD) because he refused to play to a click. Of course, he also had horrible time (and that's usually the reason why some drummers don't like clicks.)

 

[silverwulf]

I'd say whatever works best for the band. If playing to a click will comprimise performance, then just go with the flow IMO. Hardly any of the hard rock albums that are considered classics these days (Zeppelin, Sabbath, etc) were recorded with clicks. I guess I'm saying...if it's what works, do it.

 

[James Murphy]

I'd say whatever works best for the band. If playing to a click will comprimise performance, then just go with the flow IMO. Hardly any of the hard rock albums that are considered classics these days (Zeppelin, Sabbath, etc) were recorded with clicks. I guess I'm saying...if it's what works, do it.

i will follow your advice if you promise to edit all my future non-click projects for me for free.

 

[ArtisanBass]

In cubase, you can create a tempo track. It's pretty much a time line where you can set tempos for certain lenghts of time and so on. I normally program clicks on my Boss Dr.770. I get through the drum machine faster than programing on the 'puter still. Though, I'd really like to get into drum programing on the computer.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

I'll track to a click for about half my projects. It really depends on the band & the song. I've had one group where we tracked everything to a click, but the drummer kept falling off the beat on the last song. So, we turned off the click & he nailed it. No big deal.....


..Of course the other side of the coin would be the album I did where the drummer flat out refused to cut to a click. Then, on day two of tracking, he refused to cut his tracks with the rest of the band playing. No click, no scratch guitars, just drums. Neeless to say, when we got around to cutting guitars, the stuff from day two was a total fucking nightmare to deal with. Some days I'm really glad I charge by the hour.

-0z-

 

[silverwulf]

i will follow your advice if you promise to edit all my future non-click projects for me for free.

Sure...but you might not like the results... If you don't want to do an album without a click, someone else will. In order to keep with current trends and production, I agree a click is almost definitely in order.

But, it's always nice to hear something that has a more natural feel to it. In modern metal today, everything is in your face and mechanical sounding. Songs are played to a click track to keep in flawless time, drum hits are sampled and added, songs are edited so nothing is out of place, everything now has to sound "in your face," things are compressed to the point where they lose all sense of dynamics, etc.

People aren't designed to be metronomes, and they're not made to be mistake free. We're human. For that reason, it's nice for me to put on Zeppelin and hear Page clank a dead note here and there, or pop in Sabbath and hear Bill Ward speed up on occasion because he wasn't playing to a click. Not to mention things aren't compressed to the point where everything is assulting you as soon as you hit play.

But anyway...I agree that playing to a click for a modern production would be the preferred method if you want ease of editing and things as tight as possible. I just think that the processes of today lend a mechanical edge to the music. Because of that, I wouldn't be surprised to see music of this nature fade in future years, where as albums by bands like Sabbath and Zeppelin will still be heralded as classics.

 

[James Murphy]

Silverwulf, once again you are just not getting it. we spoke on the phone before didn't we? as i recall you are a man of extremes... it comes across as though you view all things as either all black or all whilte. i'm sure you do not view yourself that way, but it is the impression i get. it is TOTALLY possible to create click tracks that "breath", and once the recording is done it's ABSOLUTELY possible to NOT quantize 100%. this is clear, this is what i do, and this is NOT "mechanical", and if you can't understand how it wouldn't be then that's because you've never done it. Anyway, who said anything about compressing "to the point where you lose all dynamics"? only you. learn to see in shades of gray, and do so while reading what people actually write, becaues i was very clear and i wasn't implying anything like what you seem to have gotten from it.

with metal, as far as i'm concerned, a little preparation with a click track is always worth it and if the end result sounds mechanical or robotic (unless it's supposed to, like fear factory/biomechanical/some daath songs, etc.) then you are doing it all wrong.

anyway, how ya been? i hope the new year treats you well.

 

[silverwulf]

Silverwulf, once again you are just not getting it. we spoke on the phone before didn't we? as i recall you are a man of extremes... to you things are either all black or all whilte. i'm sure you do not view yourself that way, but it is the impression i get.

Sorry to disappoint, but that wasn't me you spoke to.

...it is TOTALLY possible to create click tracks that "breath", and once the recording is done it's ABSOLUTELY possible to NOT quantize 100%. this is clear, this is what i do, and this is NOT "mechanical", and if you can't understand how it wouldn't be then that's because you've never done it.

You never seem to get it. You read one sentence and start ranting about it instead of reading the post as a whole and taking it's collective meaning. When you get to the end of my post, you'll see that I said "I just think that the processes of today lend a mechanical edge to the music." That's a synopsis of what I saying, hence...it was at the end of my post. Hmm...processes? That's plural? What could I be speaking about? Well, let's read the rest of my post. You'll see that by processes, I mentioned click tracks, drum samples, digital editing, etc. I then said those processes lend a "mechanical edge" to the music. That does not say it makes things sound "mechanical." I'm sorry if you took that the wrong way...

Anyway, who said anything about compressing "to the point where you lose all dynamics"? only you. learn to see in shades of gray, and do so while reading what people actually write, becaues i was very clear and i wasn't implying anything like what you seem to have gotten from it.

I find it quite ironic that you say I'm incapable of viewing things in shades of grey, when you're the one who taking everything I say literally (black and white) instead of reading between the lines. That's why I have to keep explaining. If you weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You hone in on key words like "mechanical," and you then you run with it. Look beyond the words, and see what people are actually trying to say.

with metal, as far as i'm concerned, a little preparation with a click track is always worth it and if the end result sounds mechanical or robotic (unless it's supposed to, like fear factory/biomechanical/some daath songs, etc.) then you are doing it all wrong.

I completely agree that a click it worth it if you want the tightest performance possible, ease of editing, etc. Didn't I say that above? That was never in dispute. I'm sorry if we don't agree on all points, but half the time it's as if we're talking about two completely different ballgames. Also, I apologize if you thought you spoke with me before. Definitely wasn't me!

 

[James Murphy]

Sorry to disappoint, but that wasn't me you spoke to.



You never seem to get it. You read one sentence and start ranting about it instead of reading the post as a whole and taking it's collective meaning. When you get to the end of my post, you'll see that I said "I just think that the processes of today lend a mechanical edge to the music." That's a synopsis of what I saying, hence...it was at the end of my post. Hmm...processes? That's plural? What could I be speaking about? Well, let's read the rest of my post. You'll see that by processes, I mentioned click tracks, drum samples, digital editing, etc. I then said those processes lend a "mechanical edge" to the music. That does not say it makes things sound "mechanical." I'm sorry if you took that the wrong way...



I find it quite ironic that you say I'm incapable of viewing things in shades of grey, when you're the one who taking everything I say literally (black and white) instead of reading between the lines. That's why I have to keep explaining. If you weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You hone in on key words like "mechanical," and you then you run with it. Look beyond the words, and see what people are actually trying to say.



I completely agree that a click it worth it if you want the tightest performance possible, ease of editing, etc. Didn't I say that above? That was never in dispute. I'm sorry if we don't agree on all points, but half the time it's as if we're talking about two completely different ballgames. Also, I apologize if you thought you spoke with me before. Definitely wasn't me!

ha ha ha ha, too funny. i'm gong to stop addressing you now. i mean, first you say i "rant" and then immediately admit that you didn't write clearly. anyway, you are once again accusing me of exactly what i am saying that you have done. it's like a sport.. like badminton or something. i stand by my words.. and i never ranted. i was trying to help. get over it..... and why don't you read the last edit of my post, which was made before you posted your reply. have a nice day.

 

[silverwulf]

ha ha ha ha, too funny. i'm gong to stop addressing you now. i mean, first you say i "rant" and then immediately admit that you didn't write clearly. anyway, you are once again accusing me of exactly what i am saying that you have done. it's like a sport.. badminton or something. i stand by my words.. and i never ranted. i was trying to help. get over it..... and why don't read the last edit of my post, which was made before you posted your reply. have a nice day.

No, what I said was that I guess I have to explain things simpler since implications are getting taken from my regular text that weren't there. I understand you're trying to help. I think everyone here is, and I've learned a great deal from not only you and Andy, but everyone else here too. Music will always be a pasison and hobby of mine, but never a career.

Haha...yeah, read the edit...New Year is off to a rocky start actually. Huge challenge at work coming up that's gonna take some sleepless nights I'm sure.

 

[elmuchoescadawg]

You never seem to get it. You read one sentence and start ranting about it instead of reading the post as a whole and taking it's collective meaning.

IMHO Thats a bit stong.
To me it didnt read like James was being out of order to you.

Since Ive started using click track Ive never looked back. But have done some work perviously without that Ive been really pleased with. I do however find that precise, complex music like metal really does benefit from it but slower less complex rock can be just as good with a solid drummer. IMHO

 

[ArtisanBass]

I play a few styles of music and practice to a metronome and a click. One of the practices is dragging or pushing the beat on purpose for the sense of feel and so on but still while keeping good time. In fact on some R & B dates, they will look at you very funny if you don't lay back full time, though they want you to have perfect everything. I don't hear about this much in thrashier metal, death, or speed. I'm sure when a groove section, or clean section comes up, someone in the band/production is looking for a bit more of a open feel and it's probably cause they want the snare or someone else to lay back a bit more. You'll find the best bands of the genre you like study other style and pick up these feels in put them into metal. Just like some lead players infusing jazz or classical, some infuse timing ideas.