contest: paid job, black/death metal w/ violin

Melodeath said:
I agree $400 is not much for this amount of work, but it's also more than I normally get, so I will do this. (Hell, my last label release I made less than $300).

So I guess it's the usual we post a mix and you pick the person whose mix you like best?
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anyone who's mixing a "label release" for less then $300 is doing neither himself nor anyone else in the business a favor. you are accomplishing nothing more than devaluing the market.

this logic that you just have to charge that little so that you can get work is faulty. you will get the work based on your ability... and you will only ever make a living doing this, and have others actually value your work, if YOU think enough of your own abilities to charge a reasonable rate.

no, you don't "get the ball rolling" by charging these rates... that's not what is happening here. what is happening is that guys that can actually do work which a label that cares about their products would release, who charge so little, just get labels accustomed to getting work for practically nothing. you are just lowering the bar for everyone... especially if you are actually good.

stop working for so cheap... it will bankrupt you, gain you zero respect, and devalue the market for everyone. it won't hurt already established people so much, but all the guys from your generation will take a huge hit to the potential of your future incomes from this type of mentality.
 
James Murphy said:
anyone who's mixing a "label release" for less then $300 is doing neither himself nor anyone else in the business a favor. you are accomplishing nothing more than devaluing the market.

this logic that you just have to charge that little so that you can get work is faulty. you will get the work based on your ability... and you will only ever make a living and have others actually value your abilities if YOU think enough of the them to charge a reasonable rate for them.

no, you don't "get the ball rolling" by charging these rates... that's not what is happening here. what is happening is that guys that can actually do work that a label that cares about their products would release, who charge so little, just get labels used to getting good work for practically nothing. you are just lowering the bar for everyone.

stop working for so cheap.. it will bankrupt you, gain you zero respect, and devalue the market for everyone. it won't hurt already established people so much, but all the guys from your generation will take a huge hit to the potential of your future income from this type of mentality.
Click to expand...


couldn't agree more
 
James Murphy said:
anyone who's mixing a "label release" for less then $300 is doing neither himself nor anyone else in the business a favor. you are accomplishing nothing more than devaluing the market.

this logic that you just have to charge that little so that you can get work is faulty. you will get the work based on your ability... and you will only ever make a living doing this, and have others actually value your work, if YOU think enough of your own abilities to charge a reasonable rate.

no, you don't "get the ball rolling" by charging these rates... that's not what is happening here. what is happening is that guys that can actually do work which a label that cares about their products would release, who charge so little, just get labels accustomed to getting work for practically nothing. you are just lowering the bar for everyone... especially if you are actually good.

stop working for so cheap... it will bankrupt you, gain you zero respect, and devalue the market for everyone. it won't hurt already established people so much, but all the guys from your generation will take a huge hit to the potential of your future incomes from this type of mentality.
Click to expand...

thanks a ton james!
i thought i was the only one here finding this offer offensive !
you said it right!

guys - if your serious about your work - dont accept this offer, please.
 
+1
I stopped partecipating on these contests because everytime someone offered a paid job, some guys came out saying "hey I'll do it for free". I still don't understand this way to approach to works.
Also in the real world, there are guys that record, mix and master at ridicolous prices....and they only ruin the market (I mean.....10€/song sometimes!!!!).
That's ridicolous
People constantly blames about chinese people, that ruin the market...but very often we act in the same way.
 
Even if you'd be willing to settle for $400 for the project (which isn't enough even for just mixing with no editing, tuning and mastering whatsoever), you have to take into account that you're spending your time by taking part in this "competition", most probably ending up with no work considering the odds presented by the number of "contestants." I hate these kind of job offers, getting a gig shouldn't be a competition. Just my two cents, don't hate me.
 
Hey guys,

I''ve read through all of the posts, and while I do respect your opinions, I don't totally agree with them. Frankly, if we were able to afford someone like Lasse to do our mix, then we wouldn't be posting this here. Also, as I said the quality of the material doesn't justify it. But there are obviously people here who are happy for a job offer of this kind.

Regarding the contest, you do have a point here - most people will enter without financial gain. But there are also many "practice your mixing skills" threads on this board, that have tons of participation - and these are exactly the kinds of people we're looking for (amateurs looking to improve their skills, who CAN'T charge the amount of money you guys are talking about). If you do not want any "paid contests" in here, I'd suggest stating this in the rules (I know that Lasse is an admin here), because otherwise they will just keep coming.

I hope noone has been too severly offended here, and I would like to continue this discussion, but I'd appreciate it if we could do this in another thread.

Also sorry for forgetting the deadline!
It's august the 10th (so 2 weeks from now)
I'll try to update the original post.

How are you choosing the winner? We post 1 song? or what?
Click to expand...
Yes, that was the idea. You can also post a song snippet if you don't want to spend too much time on it.
 
ok then can i make one more suggestion for the thread? not saying anything bad about this band, but for safety of the guys mixing and whoever you choose to mix i think you should post your bands name and myspace page so that if the deal goes wrong, the winner will know where to find you,

i dont mean any offecnce by this its just as a safety precaution so that the guy who puts in the work for the full release can either get paid or find those who didnt pay
im sure the winner can iron things out about this with the band, but its just a general courtesy
 
I think you're missing the point here... I understand you're probably stoked that there are people on here offering their service but do you actually understand the chain of events??? First of all, $400 where I live is about 3 days work... Untaxed.. Now I could probably do this whole thing in that time and it would probably sound mediocre at best. With average editing/ mixing etc. Bcause the fact is, for a good job, and what you're asking, this would take over a week for exceptional results as there is reamping/ editing/ tuning and that's before even touching a mix fader... Then some mastering too.

So instead of asking a member or 2, you've made it a competition, the winner gets to work for you. Now, most ofthe guys on here poor themselves into their work and will probably spend some decent time working on one of your tracks to prove their worth.

Now after they've put a few days into a great mix, they will win your competition and then have to work equally hard to maintain the quality that got them the job to begin with... All for $400. I'm with lasse and Murphy on this 100%. If anyone does this they are helping to devalue this job and selling themselves short.

I'll have a crack, cause it's free tracks for mucking around. But I won't take part in this competition. It's ridiculous.
 
nialldoran said:
ok then can i make one more suggestion for the thread? not saying anything bad about this band, but for safety of the guys mixing and whoever you choose to mix i think you should post your bands name and myspace page so that if the deal goes wrong, the winner will know where to find you,

i dont mean any offecnce by this its just as a safety precaution so that the guy who puts in the work for the full release can either get paid or find those who didnt pay
im sure the winner can iron things out about this with the band, but its just a general courtesy
Click to expand...

perfectly acceptable request :)

here's our myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/revealingdawn


@Melb_shredder: I'll answer you via PN, so that we can move the topic outside this thread :)
 
nialldoran said:
id bite somebodys hand off for that kind of money working on a mixing project, for someone like me, who cannot get a job, and is completely unnknown in the mixing world, id gladly put in the hours to get paid, i do this kind of shit for free almost every day at the moment as im trying to build a good collection of solid work,
Click to expand...

You're biting your own head off. working for free/too cheap is DEAD END.
Many times I 've seen experienced AEs from this forum explaining all this shit,
but newcomers always think they are smarter....
and here we go again - "paid" mix contest,what are you guys who willing to do it expecting to get? especially those from UK......
let's see - $400 is £258, £43/song... one song is gonna take at least 8 hrs,minimum... so it is £43 a day,
don't forget that working with this sorta bands often takes more time than
you expected,,I mean normally they don't know what they want.we are not proffessional usually means: - we are timewasting wankers.so good luck to get done with this shit in two weeks...
now divide this £43 and get your £20 a day...
Happy now?
Have your halal takeaway and Ace cider ,you can't even afford a proper drink now,,,,aspiring-up-and-coming-audio-producer,my ass :heh:
illegal carwash workers get paid way more than you.and I'd say their work is less humiliating.why?,,,they even get tips sometimes.and you get NOTHING but whining how still expensive you are.

The forum's turning into auction for AE wannabe desperados,
what a joke.....
I want to say FUCK YOU ALL to those involved in this "gig".
 
>>>GENZ<<< said:
You're biting your own head off. working for free/too cheap is DEAD END.
Many times I 've seen experienced AEs from this forum explaining all this shit,
but newcomers always think they are smarter....
Click to expand...

Yeah. When you're working for dirt cheap, you're not "building a good collection of solid work", you're building a reputation of being cheap. You cut a band a ridiculously cheap deal because you want more experience, and before you know it, bands are "booking" sessions with you for the same crap compensation you got last time without even considering it might not be OK with you. And guess what happens when you tell them it's gonna cost more? They get all bitchy and find someone else who's "building a good portfolio", 'cause there's always someone.

I've done the same fucking mistake ages ago and I'm still trying to get rid of the "Hey, my friend's band tracked with you and it sounded awesome, will you do our record too? Band X told us you're a nice guy and VERY affordable!" requests. Don't try to act like you know where it's leading, I've fucking been there, being cocky and arrogant and thinking I can tell a great marketing idea from a total sucker move, and just guess how much I regret it now. Listen to James, Lasse and the other pros in here. They're not in the business for being morons, they know their shit and they're trying to help you.

If you don't value your work, either don't do it, do it for your best mate's band or your own until you feel confident or at least DON'T LET YOUR CLIENTS UNDERESTIMATE THE VALUE OF YOUR WORK. EVER.
 
>>>GENZ<<< said:
You're biting your own head off. working for free/too cheap is DEAD END.
Many times I 've seen experienced AEs from this forum explaining all this shit,
but newcomers always think they are smarter....
and here we go again - "paid" mix contest,what are you guys who willing to do it expecting to get? especially those from UK......
let's see - $400 is £258, £43/song... one song is gonna take at least 8 hrs,minimum... so it is £43 a day,
don't forget that working with this sorta bands often takes more time than
you expected,,I mean normally they don't know what they want.we are not proffessional usually means: - we are timewasting wankers.so good luck to get done with this shit in two weeks...
now divide this £43 and get your £20 a day...
Happy now?
Have your halal takeaway and Ace cider ,you can't even afford a proper drink now,,,,aspiring-up-and-coming-audio-producer,my ass :heh:
illegal carwash workers get paid way more than you.and I'd say their work is less humiliating.why?,,,they even get tips sometimes.and you get NOTHING but whining how still expensive you are.

The forum's turning into auction for AE wannabe desperados,
what a joke.....
I want to say FUCK YOU ALL to those involved in this "gig".
Click to expand...

well excuse me for being modest enough to know that my skills at the moment are not good enough to be charginewhat some professionals from this site and others do, im not hating on the guys who charge alot of money by any means, they wouldnt charge if they didnt produce very high standards of work, so how else am i supposed to get good at mixing and expect bands to want me to mix their music without working my ass off and never turning down a job, i love doing this too much to have that attitude right now, because when the chips are on the table i fully realise that in the music/metal/ mixing world i am a nobody and i want to change that,

i do fully understand and respect comments such as james murphys earlier in the thread and for someone at his level of recognition and skill he's absolutely right, i just think that applied to someone in my situation its different
 
Jarkko couldn't have said it better myself. Really I couldn't! The fact remains that this undercuts each of you as you go. The Op states they aren't expecting a top notch job... But when you make it competitive, then they flies out the window. Like I said. It's not hard to contact some of the guys on here who's demos/ mixes are easily accessable. But instead by getting the guys to compete, they *some* will push themselves because they want to prove themselves I this. If I won it for example... And then did the full mix etc to what I think was worth $400 or effort, and it was not up to the standards of my winning mix... What would your reaction be??? Would you be willing to pay??
 
All things being said, I think the OP is generally dealing with this in good spirit. I can understand where he is coming from, though that still doesn't negate the inherent problem here.

There is nothing wrong with a friendly mix-off. I certainly learned a lot doing this years ago, and I still like to take part whenever I can to help keep me on my toes, so to speak. The problem manifests when you dangle the bait of a meager payment to entice a good chunk of the younger forum populace to take part; what you're essentially doing is very manipulative. Not only are you getting the first person benefit of demoing a huge number of engineers' work on your music, but you are getting ALL of their many hours of time constructing those demos for you completely for free. In the major label world, when records are put out to 'test run' with certain mixers, everyone gets fair pay for the time they put in, even if they're not hired for the job.

What's happening here presents an entirely skewed and exploitative mindset, which is unfortunately becoming more and more entrenched, and accepted by younger workers. It may also explain why the OP fails to see anything wrong with it.

If you're going to have a mix off - have a mix off. Don't attach strings. If you want someone to work on your material, do them the courtesy of looking through their prior work, and contact them directly to work with you. This kind of approach offers nobody respect.
 
James Murphy said:
anyone who's mixing a "label release" for less then $300 is doing neither himself nor anyone else in the business a favor. you are accomplishing nothing more than devaluing the market.

this logic that you just have to charge that little so that you can get work is faulty. you will get the work based on your ability... and you will only ever make a living doing this, and have others actually value your work, if YOU think enough of your own abilities to charge a reasonable rate.

no, you don't "get the ball rolling" by charging these rates... that's not what is happening here. what is happening is that guys that can actually do work which a label that cares about their products would release, who charge so little, just get labels accustomed to getting work for practically nothing. you are just lowering the bar for everyone... especially if you are actually good.

stop working for so cheap... it will bankrupt you, gain you zero respect, and devalue the market for everyone. it won't hurt already established people so much, but all the guys from your generation will take a huge hit to the potential of your future incomes from this type of mentality.
Click to expand...
James,

Thanks for the reply. I can understand this, and I see what you're saying. I'm not sure if it makes a difference to your opinion at all, but I meant mixing and "mastering" for that price. I did not track the album as well. While it was a label release, I don't think the band received any recording or audio production money from the label. I'm not working with Century Media/Nuclear Blast bands. I have mixed and mastered an album for Relapse (not out yet), but again, the band didn't receive a single cent for audio production costs. I don't do audio production for a living. I'd like to, but it's simply not feasible for me. I'm working with underground bands who have little money, and are lucky to break even, even after selling their album. Again, I don't do this for a living, I am forced to do it on the side. And because of this, I cannot afford to "scare away" potential clients with high prices (to them), or I would get no work, which is simply put, not fun. I know you said this logic is faulty, but it isn't necessarily. The band who actually got me hooked up with other bands to work with, they asked my prices when they first contacted me. I told them, and they said "oh, nevermind, no thanks. We could never afford that..."

Despite my audio production ability (I think I'm pretty damn good), I am not really known (yet, I hope), and am more in the "underground scene" musically, in the stuff I mix, and production-wise. Thus, I am lucky to ever get a production inquiry (in the "underground" everyone is less known, obviously). Needless to say, I contacted the band again and lowered my rate, because I didn't have any other audio work at the time, and wanted to work with this band. As a result, I've done multiple projects for them, and they hooked me up with another group who has an album coming out on Relapse, which has gotten me another gig as well. But in each of these cases, not just the "origin" client, I would not have gotten the job if my rates were much higher.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just throwing some additional info out there. Curious what you think.

I hope this doesn't come off as all holier-than-thou "I'm underground" either, because that's not what I mean at all. I love working with bands whose music I enjoy most, and I do, but I would like to work on high-budget more popular metal label releases as well.
 
Jarkko Mattheiszen said:
Yeah. When you're working for dirt cheap, you're not "building a good collection of solid work", you're building a reputation of being cheap. You cut a band a ridiculously cheap deal because you want more experience, and before you know it, bands are "booking" sessions with you for the same crap compensation you got last time without even considering it might not be OK with you. And guess what happens when you tell them it's gonna cost more? They get all bitchy and find someone else who's "building a good portfolio", 'cause there's always someone.

I've done the same fucking mistake ages ago and I'm still trying to get rid of the "Hey, my friend's band tracked with you and it sounded awesome, will you do our record too? Band X told us you're a nice guy and VERY affordable!" requests. Don't try to act like you know where it's leading, I've fucking been there, being cocky and arrogant and thinking I can tell a great marketing idea from a total sucker move, and just guess how much I regret it now. Listen to James, Lasse and the other pros in here. They're not in the business for being morons, they know their shit and they're trying to help you.

If you don't value your work, either don't do it, do it for your best mate's band or your own until you feel confident or at least DON'T LET YOUR CLIENTS UNDERESTIMATE THE VALUE OF YOUR WORK. EVER.
Click to expand...

Yeah man you're totally right.
But it's quite difficult to get some jobs starting out if you don't cut at some point, especially if you don't have own band stuff that could show your abilities somehow. Difficult to get through the "portfolio/beginner" stage and keep the balance of getting your work appreciated/valuated and getting enough stuff to record.
Personally I think it's better to do like one song for free, rather than an whole album/EP for dirt cheap. Because that way it's not that easy for other bands to say "hey, they got it for free, we want it too", you can react like "sorry, free time is over".
But people always go like :ill: if you raise your prices.
and 400$ isnt even enough for just mixing, as someone here allready stated. Professional Studio guys are in a completely other league anyway, bouth price and productionwise, but even for amateur standards it's really low. I got paid better at the supermarket I worked for around a year :lol:
I'm gonna do a mix anyway, because it sounds quite interessting and I'm thankful for the practise. :wave:

I think James said the most important thing
James Murphy said:
it won't hurt already established people so much, but all the guys from your generation will take a huge hit to the potential of your future incomes from this type of mentality.
Click to expand...

About what Ermz said about getting the time of all the guys for free:
I think as long as everyone does this for himself & to get some practice than there's nothing wrong with such kind of "competitions". If you just need the job, and do not want to practice than it's a band idea to invest time into it imo.

@ phnx: If I like how it turns out, would it be possible to keep it in my porfolio (if I ever get my ass up and get some things together :zzz:)? I'll credit your band of course in that case
 
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