contest: paid job, black/death metal w/ violin

[BlackDukeReiter]

I haven't seen too many of these $$$ for mixing contests before, and I gotta admit that I was titillated at first glance. But after marinating on it, it seems kind of obvious in retrospect that it is too much work for the price.

I've actually seen this kind of thing in web development too (I did a little in college to make some cash.) You get pissed and end up working for too little money and the client gets pissed because it's not what they want. Nobody wins, even if $400 is looking real good right now.

Maybe the OP should try and compromise? Instead of six songs, cut it to a three song demo and bump it up to $600? That's still off a lot of people's radar but it might attract more consistent results (and piss less people off.)

 

[The-Zeronaut]

i really dont understand this shitstorm :S

400 dollars for 6 songs is exactly what i would charge
i am a student...this is just a hobby for me (that from time to time gets me a few bucks)
even if i want to (and i really do) i cant possibly live and cover my expenses just recording bands

i wish i had the equipment (and the skills XD) that james,lasse,joey,ermz...have...to charge more (and record better bands)
but even i had all of those
i live in a fucking small island near africa so there would be no difference at all...

so im gonna participate...i if win...awesome...
if not...i get more mixing/editing practice and something more to show future clients...

 

[premx]

i did a mix. sent through pm. 400$ is a dream for me. haha

 

[James Murphy]

James,

Thanks for the reply. I can understand this, and I see what you're saying. I'm not sure if it makes a difference to your opinion at all, but I meant mixing and "mastering" for that price. I did not track the album as well. While it was a label release, I don't think the band received any recording or audio production money from the label. I'm not working with Century Media/Nuclear Blast bands. I have mixed and mastered an album for Relapse (not out yet), but again, the band didn't receive a single cent for audio production costs. I don't do audio production for a living. I'd like to, but it's simply not feasible for me. I'm working with underground bands who have little money, and are lucky to break even, even after selling their album. Again, I don't do this for a living, I am forced to do it on the side. And because of this, I cannot afford to "scare away" potential clients with high prices (to them), or I would get no work, which is simply put, not fun. I know you said this logic is faulty, but it isn't necessarily. The band who actually got me hooked up with other bands to work with, they asked my prices when they first contacted me. I told them, and they said "oh, nevermind, no thanks. We could never afford that..."

it's not so much that you and other guys are "scaring away" potential clients as it is that you have all gotten clients so used to cheap work, that they have no idea how much is actually fair pay for it. where did you get the idea that a band "having little money" should affect how much the bottom line of what a reasonable AE rate is? that's a terrible policy to have.

and look... Relapse is a really good label, why are you making out as though they are some poor, tiny label here? they may well have signed a band for no budget, but this only means that the band needs to come up with the fee, not that AE's should work for nothing just for the "glory" of working for a known label. no, i think it's likely that the label gave them an advance, and they decided to use it as money for a van or merch start-up money, etc.

this trend that, "if the label gave us no money, then we have none... and therefore AE's should work for free/cheap to get the credit", is disturbing, and bodes very ill for guys in your shoes... and this type of thing does actually hurt guys like me and the other professionally working AE's on here (or will, eventually), because guys like you are getting labels accustomed to the idea that they don't need to give bands money, or hold back some of their advance to use specifically for production.... because someone will always be willing to do it for peanuts/free.

so again, let me underscore: whatever the label may advance the band for recording, it doesn't enforce anyone to work for that much. i have had this happen many times, and the artist simply pays the balance. i may extend them my lowest, bottom-line rate, IF it's a band on their first release and i haven't done much work for that label before, but the band will have to pay the balance that the label will not. it's simple.

Despite my audio production ability (I think I'm pretty damn good), I am not really known (yet, I hope), and am more in the "underground scene" musically, in the stuff I mix, and production-wise. Thus, I am lucky to ever get a production inquiry (in the "underground" everyone is less known, obviously). Needless to say, I contacted the band again and lowered my rate, because I didn't have any other audio work at the time, and wanted to work with this band. As a result, I've done multiple projects for them, and they hooked me up with another group who has an album coming out on Relapse, which has gotten me another gig as well. But in each of these cases, not just the "origin" client, I would not have gotten the job if my rates were much higher.

see? you have proven my point already with this paragraph... the word is getting around that you are cheap. you will be trapped in this until you realize that you have to quit because you are going broke and would do better to wait tables in a restaurant or something. then, the next misled young AE will pop in to fill your shoes... and you'll just be left with nothing but the same gear you started with and a bitter taste in your mouth. if you are already getting multiple label gigs, with good labels like Relapse, then you are one of the absolute worst offenders to the case which i made in my previous post; you are subverting the infrastructure, and the structure above that infrastructure is the ability of anyone to enter this line of work and have a reasonable expectation that, if they do well, they will be able to make a decent living and actually do it full time; aka, being a professional. and if getting multiple gigs for a well-known and respected label isn't "doing well", then what is?? Earning a reasonable fee for it, that's what.

no, the market, thanks to guys like you, will shift to amateur hobbyists... because until you can do it full time and make a living, that is what you are.

all i'm saying here is. raise your prices. do it now... do it before it's too late for you. do yourself and your peers that favor.

 

[Ataraxia2320]

I think these mix offs should be encouraged. HOWEVER, I think that there should defiantly be a MINIMUM set price per track or something to stop everyone undercutting everyone else and devaluing AE work EVERYWHERE. The problem with the industry is there is no union, therefore its a really dog eat dog situation! If I had the skills id be on this in a heart beat, just because right now im busting my ass to make 5 bucks an hour in germany while I learn the language and I NEED the cash. However, the skills I dont have(nor the monitors/room), i just say that because Id say a lot of people are in a similar situation trying to pay bills etc, especially at the moment.

 

[Melodeath]

Ok, thanks again James. I'm a young dude (22), and just out of college. I started in audio as a hobby, and making money doing it was always just a bonus.
I'm about to start my career, and while it is in audio, it's not doing mixing or producing. If I was doing production full-time, you bet I'd have much higher rates. Regardless, I'm just trying to break into the scene right now, so as it stands I usually ask for a decent rate, and only go down if I risk losing the job. Not the best tactic since I may become known as cheap. But I also figure if I ever do this for a living, I'll be doing it through some studio, and not from my home.

Also, it wasn't my intent to make Relapse sound like a shit label. I was simply pointing out I have done a release for a big label and still made shit pay
The reason the first band told me my prices were too high and I had to lower mine was because their previous mixer was doing it for like $10 a song (he's a hobbyist and just likes to help bands out). Not meaning to shift the blame, but it's all a big chain...

Anyway, overall I do agree with you, and I know I should (and deserve to) have much higher rates...

 

[SkybluestudiosBEN]

anyone who's mixing a "label release" for less then $300 is doing neither himself nor anyone else in the business a favor. you are accomplishing nothing more than devaluing the market.

this logic that you just have to charge that little so that you can get work is faulty. you will get the work based on your ability... and you will only ever make a living doing this, and have others actually value your work, if YOU think enough of your own abilities to charge a reasonable rate.

no, you don't "get the ball rolling" by charging these rates... that's not what is happening here. what is happening is that guys that can actually do work which a label that cares about their products would release, who charge so little, just get labels accustomed to getting work for practically nothing. you are just lowering the bar for everyone... especially if you are actually good.

stop working for so cheap... it will bankrupt you, gain you zero respect, and devalue the market for everyone. it won't hurt already established people so much, but all the guys from your generation will take a huge hit to the potential of your future incomes from this type of mentality.

Fuck yea James, totally agree!

 

[::XeS::]

James nailed it another time.
Labels don't pay every fucking band in the world and it'll never be like that. There are lot of band signed that have to pay recordings and photo sets by themselves, but it doesn't matter that you have to work for nothing because labels don't pay for the bands.
There are also lot of bands that save the money they need to record an EP or an LP...it's called investment. If you believe in your project, save the right amout of money and pay people what they deserve.
It's like working for a company and going at the restaurant. When you finish eating you go at the cash desk and say "oh my company didn't give me money/voucher for the launch today so I give you only 3€ instead of 20€". It's the same exact thing.
I don't understand why some job deserves everytime what they ask, and other jobs don't....
And working for so cheap ruins the market, but not only your contending's market....also yours. It ruins your own market because you become to be slave of your very cheap rates: bands come to you because of the rates and not mainly because you are great...and if you'll decide to raise the rates, you'll break the magic.

 

[BlackDukeReiter]

The more I think about this, the more my opinion changes. Everyone here would love to pour 100% of their ability into a project and be justly paid for it. OP's price would be an extreme low ball if they were asking for a full production on their EP. But the OP is asking for $400 quality work, and they're going to pick the best quality for that price.

The market is flooded with artists and engineers, and most of them are not doing it for a living. They're doing because they get great joy out of it.

When I see this:

see? you have proven my point already with this paragraph... the word is getting around that you are cheap. you will be trapped in this until you realize that you have to quit because you are going broke and would do better to wait tables in a restaurant or something.

I understand where James is coming from, from a business perspective. But I still can't get behind the mentality that "if you can't do it for a living then don't do it at all." Or also the idea that "you're ruining it for the rest of us."

I can't paint very well, and I will never make a living as a painter. But I still love to paint. If you want to pay me $400 for six paintings, that's awesome. I was going to do it anyway. Does it make me an amateur hobbyist? Sure. Does it make it any less relevant? Am I ruining it for other painters? I hope not.

 

[dcb]

raise your prices. do it now... do it before it's too late for you. do yourself and your peers that favor.

+ 1

if you guys really think about your own future in the business, do it.
we need bands and musicians to recognize, that we're specialists in what we do.

btw. : i hate bands saying : " we dont have enough money - do it for less"
most of the times its people with big cars ... if you dont have
1,000,000$, sorry, i cant give you mona lisa. now gtfo

 

[Fragle]

very great read, this thread is!

anyways, while i agree with large parts of what james and the likes said here, there's one thing i don't get:

in which other self-employed business do beginners start out with charging the same fee's as much more advanced people? you get what you pay for, that's the way i'm seeing it. be realistic with how your work stands up against others, and charge accordingly. if you know it's not on commercial level, what's the point in charging the same as guys who CAN do mixes that hold up to commercial standards?
disclaimer: i'm not advocating disturbingly cheap prices by any means, so don't get that wrong.
but think about it, usual studio rates seem to be in the 500-1k per day area. that's for a full blown studio mind you. you can't charge 500 a day if you're doing the bedroom/amateur thing, even if you have quality gear, knowledge, and get decent (yet not outstanding) results. and if you just made the switch from recording your own band or friends to actually marketing your services, and your mixes reflect that, you should charge even less. and if that specific "even less" is 100 /day, then so be it. i doubt it takes away from the business of the GOOD guys out there, the ones who make superb quality mixes in a high quality environment.
you got to start somewhere you know? that somewhere should obviously not be retardedly low, but you get my point.

besides, as for labels getting used to cheap studio fees, well, do you think they will get used to worse audio quality too? (OK, they already did, cough loudness war cough). cheap does not always equal better, and if you're serious about getting the best possible product, then i think there will be enough common sense left in the label guys so they understand that the 250€ /day studio won't give you the same quality as the expensive high end guys like andy, colin and whoever the fuck else.

 

[muckypup1]

very great read, this thread is!

anyways, while i agree with large parts of what james and the likes said here, there's one thing i don't get:

in which other self-employed business do beginners start out with charging the same fee's as much more advanced people? you get what you pay for, that's the way i'm seeing it. be realistic with how your work stands up against others, and charge accordingly. if you know it's not on commercial level, what's the point in charging the same as guys who CAN do mixes that hold up to commercial standards?
disclaimer: i'm not advocating disturbingly cheap prices by any means, so don't get that wrong.
but think about it, usual studio rates seem to be in the 500-1k per day area. that's for a full blown studio mind you. you can't charge 500 a day if you're doing the bedroom/amateur thing, even if you have quality gear, knowledge, and get decent (yet not outstanding) results. and if you just made the switch from recording your own band or friends to actually marketing your services, and your mixes reflect that, you should charge even less. and if that specific "even less" is 100 /day, then so be it. i doubt it takes away from the business of the GOOD guys out there, the ones who make superb quality mixes in a high quality environment.
you got to start somewhere you know? that somewhere should obviously not be retardedly low, but you get my point.

besides, as for labels getting used to cheap studio fees, well, do you think they will get used to worse audio quality too? (OK, they already did, cough loudness war cough). cheap does not always equal better, and if you're serious about getting the best possible product, then i think there will be enough common sense left in the label guys so they understand that the 250€ /day studio won't give you the same quality as the expensive high end guys like andy, colin and whoever the fuck else.

How much would say is fair for 6 whole songs then?!?! I haven't been able to read through the whole thread, but all I've seen is people bitching and saying that they should put their prices up for this project, but now your saying we should put them down :zombie:

 

[James Murphy]

I understand where James is coming from, from a business perspective. But I still can't get behind the mentality that "if you can't do it for a living then don't do it at all." Or also the idea that "you're ruining it for the rest of us."

i never said the first thing... i don't have that "mentality", as you put it. i did say the second thing though, and i stand by it. again, it doesn't really affect me as much, but it will effect all your peers, including those who DO want to go pro.... so if you really think the second part doesn't apply, then you are wrong.

it's ok... it's not a crime to be wrong.

 

[ahjteam]

Alright, let's break down the given assignment without downloading a single byte or listening a single second of the tracks:

- 6 songs, unnamed lenght. Given the genre (black/death metal), I am assuming quite long and technical songs, so guessing about 20-40 minutes in length (6 * 4 minutes = 24 minutes, 6 * 7 minutes = 42 minutes)
- There are violins and vocals that need editing/tuning
- midi drums, so needs drum sampler and possible midi editing
- di guitars and bass tracks, so needs reamping and possible time editing
- atleast "loudness" mastering wanted
- $400 reward
- 268mb download


Then what this requires to make it sound atleast remotely professional:
- I only have a 1mb connection, so I can download at 100kb/s speed. Estimate to download the 268mb package: 1 hour
- Beginning a session, organizing the tracks, adding grouping, routing and giving the first few spins and wondering wtf I just downloaded. Estimate: 1 hour
- Listening the track several times, tuning the vocals and violins, possibly the bass too. Estimate 2-3 hours
- Time editing the guitars and bass, if needed. Estimate 0.5-1 hour per guitartrack
- Reamping the bass and tweaking the tone. Estimate 0.5 hours
- Reamping the guitars and tweaking the tone. Estimate 1-2 hours
- Setting up the drums and making sure that the hits are on correct channels. Estimate 0.5 hours
- Doing the rough mix. Estimate 3-4 hours
- Automation and finetuning. Estimate 4-8 hours
- Possible feedback from the band for tweaking. Estimate x hours
- "Mastering". Estimate 1-3 hours

So that is about 27 hours of work, just for one song. Multiply that by 6, that makes 162 hours. Thats $2.47 an hour. You make $7.25 an hour at McDonalds.

So no thank you. Offering $1000 would be reasonable, but still dirt cheap AND below the minimum wage. I would do it for ~$2000 (1500&#8364 or $25 (20&#8364 an hour.

 

[BlackDukeReiter]

it's ok... it's not a crime to be wrong.

 

[James Murphy]

me bad?

 

[BlackDukeReiter]

me bad?

haha lol.

I'm sorry, I got heated up. I ate a taco and I'm fine now.

 

[John_C]

Everyone loves a free market until they're on the losing end

 

[James Murphy]

in which other self-employed business do beginners start out with charging the same fee's as much more advanced people? .

i didn't bother quoting the rest of your post, because this is the part where it went all wrong.

because nobody said this.... you need to re-read and be a bit more thorough.

can't stress this enough... i am talking only about people who are working for actual established, fairly big labels, and doing so for fees like "less than $300" to mix and master and entire CD which will come out on that label.

most of my strong points were made in direct reply to that guy.

the rest was just a fairly gentle admonishment to not paint oneself into a corner as the free/cheap guy... and no part of any of that would suggest that anyone, anywhere on this thread, ever once said anything about inexperienced AE's charging the same as established pros. only you... and it was quite a leap of logic, i might add.

so i hope that clears that one up.

 

[James Murphy]

Everyone loves a free market until they're on the losing end

and the only people on that losing end are?

primarily, new engineers in the current crop of young guys... like most of you on this forum.. that are trying to break into the business. you younger guys... so... free market eh? more like slave market.

sorry for your luck, but it is something you can turn around.