contest: paid job, black/death metal w/ violin

[Mago]

Whats is funny is that guitars are always my weak point in my mix. Now for this mix I said to myself '' I'll just do really basic eq cause I eq too much'', so I just did lo/hipass and a cut at 4-5k to tame some fizz...Now I just woke up and listened to your mix and mine, and yours rips the shit out of mine . I'll work again on it today.

I'd do it for 400$, but I wouldn't spend 27 hours a song as ahjteam said, and i'm sure the band don't have in mind someone would spend 162 hours for 400$. I'd spend 40 hours max on all the songs. I mean if I take 10 hours for the first song, the other songs should take 5 hours, cause it's juste importing the tracks, do some edit and some automation.

I think the best thing is to get the sound right at the source, but since I can't do much about the mic position or choice of mics when using impulses I justify huge amount of EQ
Also Ampsims tend to have a LOT more fizz than real amps. So usuall there's no limitation for EQ concerning ampsims+impulses for me.
With an real amp + cab I try to get it sound good without too much EQ though (hi/lowpass and maybe some minor dibs/raisings, but nothing heavy EQ as with ampsims).

As for the 400$: I don't think that you could be done in 40hours tbh, at least not if you want to make it good. A LOT of automation would be necessary for this kind of music (rhythm vs. lead guitars, violin vs. vocals, blastbeats vs normal playing...) + tweaking it to the bands likings also would require some time.
1000$ as Anssi stated would be reasonable, but still very cheap imo.

I don't think that your mix is that bad dude

 

[Mago]

yeah i read it
but still the performance is not very tight

Didn't have any problems with timing. Did you set the right tempo?

 

[colonel kurtz]

As for the 400$: I don't think that you could be done in 40hours tbh, at least not if you want to make it good. A LOT of automation would be necessary for this kind of music (rhythm vs. lead guitars, violin vs. vocals, blastbeats vs normal playing...) + tweaking it to the bands likings also would require some time.
1000$ as Anssi stated would be reasonable, but still very cheap imo.

it's entirely possible to mix 6 songs in less than 40 hours time and for $400. will it be quality enough to make the band happy? maybe. will it be something that could be released on a label and sold in retail channnels? most likely not.

 

[Mago]

it's entirely possible to mix 6 songs in less than 40 hours time and for $400. will it be quality enough to make the band happy? maybe. will it be something that could be released on a label and sold in retail channnels? most likely not.

You could even be done in less than a few minutes:
Just import all the tracks and make a mixdown
But there's a difference between making it and making it good, at least for me.
And some stuff just takes some time to become good...

 

[Melb_shredder]

You could even be done in less than a few minutes:
Just import all the tracks and make a mixdown
But there's a difference between making it and making it good, at least for me.
And some stuff just takes some time to become good...

Exactly dude.

Anyone can spend minimal time on it and hit mixdown. And that's the thing I was saying earlier... The band in this thread expects people to compete, meaning putting in HARD long work to get this to sound awesome so they get chosen. So yeah, that's why $400 is ridiculous. If they said, we are willing to pay someone $400 for just a quick mix on this... sweet, but that's not what was asked, It was asked that people compete for the BEXT mix, then they get the job, with a prize of $400... there you go.

 

[HandsOfDespair]

I think the best thing is to get the sound right at the source, but since I can't do much about the mic position or choice of mics when using impulses I justify huge amount of EQ
Also Ampsims tend to have a LOT more fizz than real amps. So usuall there's no limitation for EQ concerning ampsims+impulses for me.
With an real amp + cab I try to get it sound good without too much EQ though (hi/lowpass and maybe some minor dibs/raisings, but nothing heavy EQ as with ampsims).

As for the 400$: I don't think that you could be done in 40hours tbh, at least not if you want to make it good. A LOT of automation would be necessary for this kind of music (rhythm vs. lead guitars, violin vs. vocals, blastbeats vs normal playing...) + tweaking it to the bands likings also would require some time.
1000$ as Anssi stated would be reasonable, but still very cheap imo.

I don't think that your mix is that bad dude

Yeah the last 2 bands I did we sent the DIs to someone else to reamp, but I always spent 2-3 hours anyway on the mix with an ampsim, and was never happy with until I got the reamped tracks. It's soooo much more easy to make them fit in the mix than ampsims, and and needless to say it sounds a lot better.

Here's a part of my 2nd mix, a lot better I think:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/317666/kingdoms-mix06.mp3

 

[Melodeath]

I'm with James, Lasse, and others here feeling this way also.

So Melodeath - In fact, I gave you some very similar advice over AIM recently, but you were very stubborn about it and although you heard what I had to say, you seemed determined to continue charging rates that are essentially free. And I actually like your work, you could (and should) easily charge 5 or 10 times more for what you do, man!

Ha, I didn't mean to sound stubborn at all. I don't remember exactly what I said to you, to be honest, but I'm not determined to charge such low rates. I would LOVE to make good money doing what I do. The issue is that I do work for bands that aren't willing to pay a lot. Yes, I could easily turn the work down because the pay is low, but then I would have literally no projects to work on other than my own band. For all of the "pro" projects I've worked on, the band would have not given me the project if I was expecting more money. And they wouldn't have taken their business elsewhere. They would have simply gotten it done free, or not at all, or left the mixes as is. I love doing work on my band, but having other projects to mix is awesome (I got into audio production because I enjoy doing it, not because I thought I could make money off of it). It sucks that the bands can't pay more, but how am I supposed to remedy that other than declining the work?

It all boils down to the fact that I would rather make a tiny bit of money doing something I enjoy, than charge more and wind up with no clients. Even at my extremely low rates, getting a mixing gig is really rare for me, and I consider myself fortunate to even get a project. I'm so jealous of guys here who get projects left and right! They aren't even aware of my problems!
And like I said, if I insisted on higher rates, I would not have gotten these jobs that I have gotten. Sure, maybe clients would eventually come to me if I charged a higher rate, but I really don't know how to break into the higher-paying scene.

Regardless, thanks for your kind words about my work. I definitely agree I "could" charge more, and should, but I hope my explanation of my situation makes sense why I haven't. With this post, it is not my intent to justify why I get paid so little (perhaps I am failing regarding my intentions haha). I'm not saying I enjoy being paid little, or that it's a good thing. I'm just explaining why I've accepted these jobs. I would much rather get paid better, and it sucks not getting any clients other than ones who can barely pay, which is essentially forcing me into audio as a hobby, as opposed to a career. I would absolutely charge more and decline low-paying jobs I wasn't interested in if I had a steady client base like other guys here do. In this post I'm merely trying to explain what has happened in my mixing career so far

 

[James Murphy]

For all of the "pro" projects I've worked on, the band would have not given me the project if I was expecting more money. And they wouldn't have taken their business elsewhere. They would have simply gotten it done free, or not at all, or left the mixes as is. I love doing work on my band, but having other projects to mix is awesome (I got into audio production because I enjoy doing it, not because I thought I could make money off of it). It sucks that the bands can't pay more, but how am I supposed to remedy that other than declining the work?

this type of "logic" is fallacious... the fact is that charging appropriately gets you MORE work, not less. it's a maxim of human nature.

but of course the pay you earn due to that maxim will be subject to what IS the norm in that regard... and it's my contention that guys like you are currently engaged, whether you think you are or not, in eroding that norm... and will eventually reap the "rewards" of that effort: shit pay for hard work.

enjoy!

 

[Melb_shredder]

I can only agree with James again on this one. Your logic is definitely flawed because you think what you are doing is a neccesity for work etc. You may not do this for a living and we get that, heck I don't, but I know what a job is worth. The fact is, if you cater to bands who are tight and won't work their own arse off for their music, but expect you to do just that and at extremely low rates... then I can't paint the picture any clearer for you dude!

 

[anti-mother]

here's my first mix..

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2251287/kingdom.mp3

 

[Ermz]

I'm not really known, but I turn work down on the basis of cost all the time. If they aren't at least willing to compensate you fairly for your time (I'm talking your country's minimum wage) then you simply set a bad precedent by taking the job. I would sooner do it for free, and let it be known that it was done as a favor rather than take $50 per song or whatever. The implications on the industry as a whole are terrible when everyone starts to compromise like that. Have some wider perspective, think of the greater industry. If you aren't making enough money doing AE, then take on a day job. I'm sure McDonald's pays way more than some people charge, so you can focus on building a portfolio with free/favor work, and take on real jobs for real money, thus not degrading yourself nor your industry.

 

[Josh Burgess]

I don't understand why bands aren't willing to come up with more money. If you're in a band and really care about your music, you should be willing to spend money. Say there are 5 people in a band, and each person is willing to pitch in $300... that's $1500 total, which isn't much at all compared to what a lot of people charge, but there are plenty of guys on here who would do a damn good job for $1500. If you're serious about your music and want a quality product, $300 per person is pocket change...

 

[nialldoran]

this thread has really got me questioning myself alot, although i know we have went completely off topic against the bands request etc.etc.

but yeah, i mean youve got people like james murphy and lassse who have made very strong absolutely correct arguments, and melodeath a guy who should be charging more for his mixes but cant as he fears losing mixing work, and i can see myself agreeing with all of you, which leaves me in a pickle because you are essentially arguing from different sides of the same job,

i never thought about making money in this kind of work, i mean really thought about it untill this thread, as i am still getting a system nailed down to work to and constantly trying to improve myself and my work, im now pondering when im going to be good enough to start charging decent prices and how to not lose clients in the process, overall im more enlightened by the conversation, but now left with SO much more to put serious thought into

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I don't understand why bands aren't willing to come up with more money. If you're in a band and really care about your music, you should be willing to spend money. Say there are 5 people in a band, and each person is willing to pitch in $300... that's $1500 total, which isn't much at all compared to what a lot of people charge, but there are plenty of guys on here who would do a damn good job for $1500. If you're serious about your music and want a quality product, $300 per person is pocket change...

This X 1,000

Unless your still in high school in which case your music probably isn't up to snuff yet anyway (yeah that's a really broad generalization, not everyone in high school makes junk music).

 

[El_Gato]

First, everyone do what they want to. You want to do it for free/cheap? I'm not concerned, really. But you (AEs willing to do so) should.

The OP was honest and they'll have their product, you like it or not.

Like in a "regular" job there should be a minimum wage but, as AE's are not organized, united and Unionized, some still keep on selling themselves cheap.

I honestly think this has nothing to do with competitors and their wages but with reputation. If you do it great, you'll have recognition and bands will come to you. If you are looking for bands to record them for cheap, this most probably means you can't achieve the sound the bands want. Bands know who can make it and don't mind to pay a bit more for better. Again you get what you pay for in most cases.

Believe it or not, many people don't buy the cheapest products just because they tend to think they're somewhat worse than a more expensive one. Charging accordingly to the quality is a question of Honesty and Integrity.

 

[ParsonsMatt]

What luck! I'm actually mixing my own CD very similarly... All DI guitar and bass, MIDI drums. I'll take these stems, drop them in my mix template, and see how the band likes it. It'd be an easy $400 for me since most of the legwork is already done.

 

[Erik Monsonis]

Late to the party but I'd like to say a couple of things:

I started charging shit money (I was 16, absolutely no gear, cheap plugins, cracked daw...) to record some small bands in my area, until I realised it was so time consuming that it wasn't worth anymore - if I wanted to practice, I'd just use free raw tracks to do it, and would have no deadlines or whining.

Then I started charging 120€ per song (mixed and pseudomastered only) and soon I realised it worked wonders to filter the shitty bands: only decent and serious bands can afford a more expensive production (still cheap...). Suddenly I had to work less, get better paid and get a better result, that simultaneously acts as advertising.

Now I raised my prices to 300€ per song (again, just editing mixing and pseudo-mastering, my associate does the tracking in his studio) and I've got like 3 label releases in a row, I can pay my rents and bills with the production money (can't eat or pay my scholarship but at least it's a help for my family) and the bands I scared with the prices are the bands I don't want to work with, so it's better for everyone. There will always be noob AE's that charge 10€ per song, so the shitty bands will always have a chance to be recorded, but I won't suffer them anymore.

I'm still cheap, compared to the local studios, and my results are way better than most of them, but I'm not that cheap that I fuck up with the market.

So, in the end I've gotten out the shit market of shit bands and shit money, just by increasing rates, and I'm sure I will be able to make a decent living off this in a couple years, after I get more exposure by the label recordings I'm starting to do right now.

Thanks James for the tips, as it's not the first time you talk to us about this issue.

Cheers!

 

[premx]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5308644/kd2.mp3

what do you guys think?
i changed the snare and different kick eq and stuff...

 

[DanLights]

Late to the party but I'd like to say a couple of things:

I started charging shit money (I was 16, absolutely no gear, cheap plugins, cracked daw...) to record some small bands in my area, until I realised it was so time consuming that it wasn't worth anymore - if I wanted to practice, I'd just use free raw tracks to do it, and would have no deadlines or whining.

Then I started charging 120€ per song (mixed and pseudomastered only) and soon I realised it worked wonders to filter the shitty bands: only decent and serious bands can afford a more expensive production (still cheap...). Suddenly I had to work less, get better paid and get a better result, that simultaneously acts as advertising.

Now I raised my prices to 300€ per song (again, just editing mixing and pseudo-mastering, my associate does the tracking in his studio) and I've got like 3 label releases in a row, I can pay my rents and bills with the production money (can't eat or pay my scholarship but at least it's a help for my family) and the bands I scared with the prices are the bands I don't want to work with, so it's better for everyone. There will always be noob AE's that charge 10€ per song, so the shitty bands will always have a chance to be recorded, but I won't suffer them anymore.

I'm still cheap, compared to the local studios, and my results are way better than most of them, but I'm not that cheap that I fuck up with the market.

So, in the end I've gotten out the shit market of shit bands and shit money, just by increasing rates, and I'm sure I will be able to make a decent living off this in a couple years, after I get more exposure by the label recordings I'm starting to do right now.

Thanks James for the tips, as it's not the first time you talk to us about this issue.

Cheers!

Did you ever notice that thread I made about a production of yours being praised to death and your name raised on a pedestal? You're in for good things amigo, and you definitely got it figured out

 

[Mago]

Late to the party but I'd like to say a couple of things:

I started charging shit money (I was 16, absolutely no gear, cheap plugins, cracked daw...) to record some small bands in my area, until I realised it was so time consuming that it wasn't worth anymore - if I wanted to practice, I'd just use free raw tracks to do it, and would have no deadlines or whining.

Then I started charging 120€ per song (mixed and pseudomastered only) and soon I realised it worked wonders to filter the shitty bands: only decent and serious bands can afford a more expensive production (still cheap...). Suddenly I had to work less, get better paid and get a better result, that simultaneously acts as advertising.

Now I raised my prices to 300€ per song (again, just editing mixing and pseudo-mastering, my associate does the tracking in his studio) and I've got like 3 label releases in a row, I can pay my rents and bills with the production money (can't eat or pay my scholarship but at least it's a help for my family) and the bands I scared with the prices are the bands I don't want to work with, so it's better for everyone. There will always be noob AE's that charge 10€ per song, so the shitty bands will always have a chance to be recorded, but I won't suffer them anymore.

I'm still cheap, compared to the local studios, and my results are way better than most of them, but I'm not that cheap that I fuck up with the market.

So, in the end I've gotten out the shit market of shit bands and shit money, just by increasing rates, and I'm sure I will be able to make a decent living off this in a couple years, after I get more exposure by the label recordings I'm starting to do right now.

Thanks James for the tips, as it's not the first time you talk to us about this issue.

Cheers!

Great post Erik!