contest: paid job, black/death metal w/ violin

Ermz said:
If you aren't making enough money doing AE, then take on a day job. I'm sure McDonald's pays way more than some people charge, so you can focus on building a portfolio with free/favor work, and take on real jobs for real money, thus not degrading yourself nor your industry.
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How many times have we discussed on here how bad of an idea it is to work for free?

I think we all agree that at least charging a - more or less - symbolic amount will significantly decrease the chance that the band will take advantage of you while it also increases their appreciation for what you're doing.

Personally, I'm not offended by the offer in question here. I think it's perfectly legit: The terms and conditions are laid out openly, you either accept or decline. It's that simple.

I can totally understand people not willing to work with such a budget and I can also very much relate to the mindset of being against a competitive scenario. In fact, this offer doesn't appeal much to me for these reasons.

But the reality is that there are countless people out there who are more than glad to take this chance as the budgetary outlook might even vastly exceed what they're used to.

Who am I to tell people they shouldn't be doing this? I might feel so but I'm certainly not in a position to do so. The argument of keeping the industry as a whole in perspective is quite vaporous to people who work their asses off to get a foot in the door, building a client base and solid portfolio. That's just the reality.

Dandelium said:
So, in the end I've gotten out the shit market of shit bands and shit money, just by increasing rates, and I'm sure I will be able to make a decent living off this in a couple years, after I get more exposure by the label recordings I'm starting to do right now.
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Yeah Erik, but what enabled you to gradually raise your rates? The quality level and reputation you slowly built up because you are extremely talented. Plain skill only gets you so far when you don't have the reputation/client base to go with it.

And that's just the natural progress: You get better, you get more clients, you get a better reputation. And as you get more clients you automatically have more choice of whom to work with. You can charge more while working with more desirable clients. Repeat. How far this goes heavily depends on what level you're able to take your skill and reputation to.

James definitely IS right when he advises people on not selling them short. But the definition of "selling short" heavily depends on the context of your actual skill and reputation.
 
Slash.. you just typed faaar too much just to be wrong about what we were even talking about... that energy should have been put into more carefully reading the thread... then you would have saved yourself a bit of typing there. because, and i state it again now in this thread for the THIRD TIME... 90% or more of this discusssion is NOT about the OP.. it's about accepting actual label gigs, that are known in advance to be coming out on well known labels, for fees like "under $300".

ok?

i hope it's clear finally.

but i'll type it a 4th time if i have to.

:cool:
 
I understand what everyone is saying. But I still think there is some confusion. I feel like people are talking about this as if it's happening to them, rather than imagining the situation in someone else's shoes. I'm working with bands in the underground that barely even care about production. It's a complete after-thought. Some of them record their songs in their home with a radioshack mic. (I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm just telling it like it is. Not everyone wants to sound like KsE or modern Arch Enemy) It's not that they don't care about their music enough to shell out $300 per person; it's that they actually like sloppy, dirty productions. They don't sell thousands of copies of their albums, and they could get away with paying literally $0 on production. They would rather not lose money by releasing an album. It's up to you whether that's acceptable or not

I'm just doing this stuff out of a home studio. If I was trying to be "pro" right now, of course I would decline low-paying jobs. Rather, I'm just accepting mixes because I enjoy mixing. But James, that's really an interesting take on it. I never would have thought having higher rates could bring in more clients.

And even though my pay seems little, I am still making at least minimum wage. In this music there's no vocal tuning, drum quantization, reamping, whatever. It's usually straight forward, old-styled death metal where they want a simple production that really doesn't take me that long to mix.

Of course if you think about what I'm dealing with from your own shoes, you'd think I'm crazy. Why accept a low-calibur job where I have to mix tracks that are really poorly tracked? Well, most importantly, it's because I actually like this music. Only secondly is it because this is the only serious work I've been offered in recent years. Yes, if I had higher-rates I'd imagine I would get some higher-paying clients. But I HIGHLY doubt I would get any bands willing to shell out that money in THIS style that I normally work with.

Of course I understand why others would decline. If you still think my logic is fallacious, please do tell :lol:
I intend no disrespect towards anyone; I'm actually enjoying this discussion

And I hope my posts are making sense, rather than just making me appear thick-headed. I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I am fully aware more "normal" gigs would require more work and more time, and more pay. And I would not accept this pay for mixing that involved a lot more work with modern production values.

What's wrong with accepting a low-paying label gig if you know:
1) The band is unwilling to pay any more
2) If you have higher rates, the band will simply release the CD as is with little/no mixing
3) The work wont take that long to complete
4) You have no other work going on
5) You enjoy mixing
6) You enjoy this style of metal

The only negative I can think of is becoming known as "cheap." But I don't necessarily see that as an issue, because you can always decline a job if you feel it's not worth doing. Being cheap is not a permanent label. Rates change over time
 
I never would have thought having higher rates could bring in more clients.
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FWIW, in the mid-90's gibson dropped the prices on most of their guitars considerably, figuring that there were a lot of people out there who wanted a gibson, but who just couldn't afford them. then their sales actually dropped off because the lower price point bumped them down in perceived quality in the market. they then raised their prices back up on the gibson models, and came out with the epiphone versions of les pauls, SG's, etc. in order to satisfy the needs to the middle range of the market.

any time you're engaging in any sort of business, you have to look at your competition - both their price and the quality of their product, then look at yourself, and determine where you fit into the market.
 
Mago said:
Nuff talk, here's a mix :lol: (not the full song btw)
no automation + no thanks to mixing it for 400$, but thanks for the practice :headbang:
Finally I could try out some new sounds, sample and guitarwise.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3961577/Mixes/Revealing_Dawn-KingdomOfStone-Sample-Mago.mp3
mixed entirely on cans (5am around here now)
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This mix is so awesome! Guitars are so punchy and alive for being ampsims. Great job!

Here's my take on this song
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1980982/Kingdom of Stone.mp3

Guitars are Legion with a couple cuts and a boost of eq. Bass and clean guitars are ampegSVX.
 
Melo... if you don't get it by now, you are not going to. but yes, i do still think exactly the same, despite your explanation.. if fact, you have brought up points that you obviously think strengthen your position, when in fact they actually bolster mine.

you will eventually either burn out and realize that it's not worth moving forward, or you will wise up and raise your prices... at which point you'll realize that everything i've said to you is true.
 
CAlexanderParra said:
This mix is so awesome! Guitars are so punchy and alive for being ampsims. Great job!
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Thanks man!

HandsOfDespair said:
Just spent another hour on it:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/317666/kingdoms-mix07.mp3
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Allready sounds a lot better imo :headbang:

lolzgreg said:
A little less high midrange, and would be a nearly perfect guitar tone for the mix. Nice job with the ampisms.
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Wow Greg, hearing that from you quite makes me go :tickled: since I always thought your reamps crush/never disappoint/are pure awesomeness :D.
I really hope that I'll have some budged on my bands or other future projects to make use of your reamping skills at some point. :hotjump:
 
James Murphy said:
Slash.. you just typed faaar too much just to be wrong about what we were even talking about... that energy should have been put into more carefully reading the thread... then you would have saved yourself a bit of typing there. because, and i state it again now in this thread for the THIRD TIME... 90% or more of this discusssion is NOT about the OP.. it's about accepting actual label gigs, that are known in advance to be coming out on well known labels, for fees like "under $300".

ok?

i hope it's clear finally.

but i'll type it a 4th time if i have to.

:cool:
Click to expand...

James, the last two sentences of my lengthy post were actually directly referring to your posts about label gigs and payment, which I'm fully agreeing with. ;) That's why I said it's depending on the context of your work.

But quite a few people weren't talking about label gigs but rather about this exact scenario as presented by the OP. That's what my post was aiming at.
 
FearComplexMusic said:
Considering the amount of work an AE has to put in to get the lazy bands of today sounding good I'm struggling to see why they shouldn't be made pay well for the services. I'm old enough to remember a time when bands had their shit together before entering the studio, when there was no 8 hour drum editing sessions, no auto tuning a fucking crow, no reamping a dozen times adjusting the presence alone, and you know music still sounded good then. You could charge low rates then and get the job done in no time and so everyone won. Now with the amount of work involved it's just not worth it unless you're compensated fairly.
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that i have to agree with, the whole session would ttake less time and be cheaper if the bands really really threw themselves at recording to get it as best a s humanly possible, then they wouldnt complain about high mixing prices because there wouldnt be so much to be done i suppose
 
FearComplexMusic said:
Considering the amount of work an AE has to put in to get the lazy bands of today sounding good I'm struggling to see why they shouldn't be made pay well for the services. I'm old enough to remember a time when bands had their shit together before entering the studio, when there was no 8 hour drum editing sessions, no auto tuning a fucking crow, no reamping a dozen times adjusting the presence alone, and you know music still sounded good then. You could charge low rates then and get the job done in no time and so everyone won. Now with the amount of work involved it's just not worth it unless you're compensated fairly.
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I don't think I've ever seen you post here before, but you are THE MAN
 
While I agree with most of what's been said here, I have a black metal album in a few weeks so I thought I would do a guitar amp test in advance using this session.
Ended up with a Mesa triple rec and H&K Triamp MK2 blended.
The 6505 was a bit too smooth for this track.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2133088/BM TEST.mp3
 
Mago said:
Wow Greg, hearing that from you quite makes me go :tickled: since I always thought your reamps crush/never disappoint/are pure awesomeness :D.
I really hope that I'll have some budged on my bands or other future projects to make use of your reamping skills at some point. :hotjump:
Click to expand...

Thanks man. You did a great job. Keep up the monster work :Smokin:
 
Gotta love it how every now and then a guy comes to the forums, starts a competion AND a huge discussion/argument, then disappears again.
 
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