Couple questions regarding bands and payment

[setyouranchor]

1) I'm gonna be mixing and mastering a local bands EP, BUT their two guitarists who have been recording their demos, want to come round and sit through the whole mixing and mastering process. Have any of you done this with bands? I'm just a little concerned as one of them was talking about wanting to set up his own studio next year. They're not exactly the best at production and I'm a little worried they're gonna be stealing "tips and tricks" so to speak

2) Finished tracking for a band, now into the mixing/mastering stage. I was considering asking for a small amount of the final payment early to put towards some new mixing headphones. It'll benefit the final outcome but not sure if its really professional or not?

Thanks fellars!

 

[if6was9]

If you're not comfortable then don't let the band sit in on the whole affair, but do let them come in at the finishing stages for their opinion. I've had bands around while I did some mixing/editing before and they just don't get it. They may claim to understand how much time setting stuff up takes and everything but you'll be hearing "guitar needs to be louder" before you've even finished tinkering with the drums- very annoying. But once the mix starts to take shape their opinion is quite valuable.

For 2) explain to them why you want the money, its not unreasonable. I've had friends do this before with clients and always worked out well. Worst case scenario they refuse and say they don't have it.

 

[Donovan S.]

1) I'm gonna be mixing and mastering a local bands EP, BUT their two guitarists who have been recording their demos, want to come round and sit through the whole mixing and mastering process. Have any of you done this with bands? I'm just a little concerned as one of them was talking about wanting to set up his own studio next year. They're not exactly the best at production and I'm a little worried they're gonna be stealing "tips and tricks" so to speak

2) Finished tracking for a band, now into the mixing/mastering stage. I was considering asking for a small amount of the final payment early to put towards some new mixing headphones. It'll benefit the final outcome but not sure if its really professional or not?

Thanks fellars!

Honestly, I think letting the band sit in and watch you mix/master is a bad idea. If they insist, I would get the mix about 80% there and then let them come in. In my experience, bands are usually a distraction when you need to sit down and focus on an aspect of the mix. You would be mixing the kick and they would tell you to make sure the guitars are punchy. Stupid shit like that always happens, at least in my experience.

As for the payment, I would have required half of the total amount up front, so I don't think that would be unprofessional at all.

 

[setyouranchor]

If you're not comfortable then don't let the band sit in on the whole affair, but do let them come in at the finishing stages for their opinion. I've had bands around while I did some mixing/editing before and they just don't get it. They may claim to understand how much time setting stuff up takes and everything but you'll be hearing "guitar needs to be louder" before you've even finished tinkering with the drums- very annoying. But once the mix starts to take shape their opinion is quite valuable.

For 2) explain to them why you want the money, its not unreasonable. I've had friends do this before with clients and always worked out well. Worst case scenario they refuse and say they don't have it.

Honestly, I think letting the band sit in and watch you mix/master is a bad idea. If they insist, I would get the mix about 80% there and then let them come in. In my experience, bands are usually a distraction when you need to sit down and focus on an aspect of the mix. You would be mixing the kick and they would tell you to make sure the guitars are punchy. Stupid shit like that always happens, at least in my experience.

As for the payment, I would have required half of the total amount up front, so I don't think that would be unprofessional at all.

Thanks guys, pretty similar responses, almost exact haha

The guitarist in the first question is a perfectionist. I've known him YEARS and he's pretty stubborn. He wants to bring the project files and audio round on a hard drive : / so I'll pretty much have to say, let me do my thing on my own.

The payment, I only asked for 25% upfront. Guess its my bad but they're pretty young and I know how annoying money situations can be.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

1) I'm gonna be mixing and mastering a local bands EP, BUT their two guitarists who have been recording their demos, want to come round and sit through the whole mixing and mastering process. Have any of you done this with bands? I'm just a little concerned as one of them was talking about wanting to set up his own studio next year. They're not exactly the best at production and I'm a little worried they're gonna be stealing "tips and tricks" so to speak

Attended sessions cost extra for the client if the project is billed per song and not by hour. It's not because I'm a dick and I want to work by myself, but attended sessions ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS take longer than mixing by myself. The band wants you to explain why you do what you do, they want to try lots of different stuff they think might sound cool just to throw it away and go back to your original idea, they want the monitors to be FUCKEN CRANKED DUDE SHIT YEAH THIS SOUNDS A LOT BETTER NOW and especially young bands ALWAYS get distracted at some point and start fooling around with your gear, talking about pussy or drumming on their thighs, making it harder for you to concentrate. Lots of time gets wasted, so if the bands insists on being around for mixing, it's gonna cost more.

2) Finished tracking for a band, now into the mixing/mastering stage. I was considering asking for a small amount of the final payment early to put towards some new mixing headphones. It'll benefit the final outcome but not sure if its really professional or not?

Thanks fellars!

If the guys are friends of yours, go ahead and explain the situation. If they're just a client among others, you already got your deposit everyone agreed on. Next time, make it 50%.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

The payment, I only asked for 25% upfront. Guess its my bad but they're pretty young and I know how annoying money situations can be.

For future reference, young bands who are tight on the money are the ones you can't really make exceptions with. If they have trouble paying the full deposit, chances are they're gonna have trouble paying the full amount when the songs are done. Always make sure you're going to get paid. No payment plans, no "ok, here's the master CD, you can pay when you can". None of that unless it's actually a good move business-wise, like if we're talking about the next Nickelback and you know you'll get lots of work in the future from going easy on them. Unfortunately, they're not the next Nickelback.

This might sound harsh, but it's not at all. You can't walk into a grocery store and negotiate on the price and payment options on a huge German sausage, either.

 

[setyouranchor]

Attended sessions cost extra for the client if the project is billed per song and not by hour. It's not because I'm a dick and I want to work by myself, but attended sessions ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS take longer than mixing by myself. The band wants you to explain why you do what you do, they want to try lots of different stuff they think might sound cool just to throw it away and go back to your original idea, they want the monitors to be FUCKEN CRANKED DUDE SHIT YEAH THIS SOUNDS A LOT BETTER NOW and especially young bands ALWAYS get distracted at some point and start fooling around with your gear, talking about pussy or drumming on their thighs, making it harder for you to concentrate. Lots of time gets wasted, so if the bands insists on being around for mixing, it's gonna cost more.



If the guys are friends of yours, go ahead and explain the situation. If they're just a client among others, you already got your deposit everyone agreed on. Next time, make it 50%.

For future reference, young bands who are tight on the money are the ones you can't really make exceptions with. If they have trouble paying the full deposit, chances are they're gonna have trouble paying the full amount when the songs are done. Always make sure you're going to get paid. No payment plans, no "ok, here's the master CD, you can pay when you can". None of that unless it's actually a good move business-wise, like if we're talking about the next Nickelback and you know you'll get lots of work in the future from going easy on them. Unfortunately, they're not the next Nickelback.

This might sound harsh, but it's not at all. You can't walk into a grocery store and negotiate on the price and payment options on a huge German sausage, either.

I totally agree man, thank you for the input

I'm only just starting out with bands so I'm trying to be reasonable, but at the same time I want to be professional about it so other bands dont think "hey, you did this with them, do it with us" etc

I mix a lot better and a lot quicker on my own without any distractions.

Yeah, I'm pretty cool with this band. I went to college with one of them and even go for the occasional drink with them all since we've started recording. I'll give them a text in a bit and see what they think about paying a bit for the headphones

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

I'm only just starting out with bands so I'm trying to be reasonable, but at the same time I want to be professional about it so other bands dont think "hey, you did this with them, do it with us" etc

I know the situation, it's really hard to balance between being the friendly new guy learning the ropes and the professional dude just doing his job like anyone else. I've made pretty much all the mistakes one can possibly make regarding that, but I'm going to attempt going from part-time to full-time in a few months and can't afford to make any more of those

 

[NSGUITAR]

I'd absolutely let them sit in..

When I mix/master I go through stuff so fast that nobody's going to understand what I'm doing, unless they're very experienced with it anyways..

But think man.. The most important thing when getting with a band (aside from the actual work) is building a solid relationship.. That is if you want to keep them as a client or you want them to give you referrals.

I wouldn't charge them a thing to sit in.. But I also wouldn't show too much either, if that's what you're worried about. If anything, the whole process will just bore the fuck out of them.

 

[black.death]

Do not, do not, do not let your friend sit in. He did not pay extra to attend your mix session, therefore do not give him this service for free. He especially did not pay additional money to be taught what you have likely busted your ass learning. Let me breakdown this scenario for you and I won't even get into the bit where this guy is a complete pain in the ass in the studio and will make everything take three times as long.

1. Your buddy wants to enter your exact same target market.
2. He wants you to teach him how to do what you are doing and why you are doing it.
3. Your buddy will without a doubt one day take away some clients from your market by using the knowledge that you taught him.
4. You will be pissed that you just trained your competition for free.

About the headphones I'm going to say just ask your parents or close friend to borrow some money instead. Even though your intentions are legit with wanting to improve that band's mix; this might be viewed in a not so great way.

Do not under any circumstance let this guy into your house etc. while mixing. Make up some complete bullshit like your mom, sister, brother, grandma, or even you are are sick and super contagious that should work.

 

[RichMinerva]

Do not, do not, do not let your friend sit in. He did not pay extra to attend your mix session, therefore do not give him this service for free. He especially did not pay additional money to be taught what you have likely busted your ass learning. Let me breakdown this scenario for you and I won't even get into the bit where this guy is a complete pain in the ass in the studio and will make everything take three times as long.

1. Your buddy wants to enter your exact same target market.
2. He wants you to teach him how to do what you are doing and why you are doing it.
3. Your buddy will without a doubt one day take away some clients frm your market by using the knowledge that you taught him.
4. You will be pissed that you just trained your competition for free.

About the headphones I'm going to say just ask your parents or close friend to borrow some money instead. Even though your intentions are legit with wanting to improve that band's mix; this might be viewed in a not so great way.

Do not under any circumstance let this guy into your house etc. while mixing. Make up some complete bullshit like your mom, sister, brother, grandma, or even you are are sick and super contagious that should work.

+1

Had it happen to me, twice!!

 

[setyouranchor]

Do not, do not, do not let your friend sit in. He did not pay extra to attend your mix session, therefore do not give him this service for free. He especially did not pay additional money to be taught what you have likely busted your ass learning. Let me breakdown this scenario for you and I won't even get into the bit where this guy is a complete pain in the ass in the studio and will make everything take three times as long.

1. Your buddy wants to enter your exact same target market.
2. He wants you to teach him how to do what you are doing and why you are doing it.
3. Your buddy will without a doubt one day take away some clients from your market by using the knowledge that you taught him.
4. You will be pissed that you just trained your competition for free.

About the headphones I'm going to say just ask your parents or close friend to borrow some money instead. Even though your intentions are legit with wanting to improve that band's mix; this might be viewed in a not so great way.

Do not under any circumstance let this guy into your house etc. while mixing. Make up some complete bullshit like your mom, sister, brother, grandma, or even you are are sick and super contagious that should work.

Pretty much EXACTLY what I was worried about bud. Another dude, who's friends with the guitarist of the band I'm working with wanted to come in watch the recording session a few weeks ago and I just said no. He always sends me emails and texts etc asking how to do shit. For example:

Other dude: Hey man! Your drums sound really good, I'm thinking about getting Steven Slate, could you help me out with making them sound good?

Me: Awh man, dont waste your time with them, get EZ Drummer. I would have got that if I knew how much better it was than SSD

Other dudes: *goes and clearly torrents EZ Drummer*

And yeah your right, I've been producing music for around 4/5 years now, spent all my money on it, studied it at college, read books, ENDLESS amounts of tutorials and finding this lovely forum These guys have been producing for around a year now and sit at home with a macbook, ipod headphones and a UX1. /rant. But yeah, I was worried they were probably coming in for a free lesson.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

I wouldn't worry about him stealing your magic moves. Being a good engineer has got fuck all to do with knowing the little tricks. It's all about the ears, the mindset, the ability to tell what sounds good and being good with people. If the dude knows how you sometimes use the kick track to sidechain the gate of an 80Hz sinewave signal generator (there, I just said it out loud, is my business doomed now? ) his work is still going to suck if he hasn't got the talent. Engineers, even the big guys, share little tips and such on this forum all the time.

YMMV.

 

[Donovan S.]

I wouldn't worry about him stealing your magic moves. Being a good engineer has got fuck all to do with knowing the little tricks. It's all about the ears, the mindset, the ability to tell what sounds good and being good with people. If the dude knows how you sometimes use the kick track to sidechain the gate of an 80Hz sinewave signal generator (there, I just said it out loud, is my business doomed now? ) his work is still going to suck if he hasn't got the talent. Engineers, even the big guys, share little tips and such on this forum all the time.

YMMV.

+1. Don't worry about anyone "stealing" your techniques.

 

[black.death]

I wouldn't worry about him stealing your magic moves. Being a good engineer has got fuck all to do with knowing the little tricks. It's all about the ears, the mindset, the ability to tell what sounds good and being good with people. If the dude knows how you sometimes use the kick track to sidechain the gate of an 80Hz sinewave signal generator (there, I just said it out loud, is my business doomed now? ) his work is still going to suck if he hasn't got the talent. Engineers, even the big guys, share little tips and such on this forum all the time.

YMMV.

It's not so much that his friend will be stealing "tricks" persay. It's just that his friend has not spent the time necessary to learn anything about recording and wants to get up to speed with the 4-5 years that setyouranchor has already dedicated to getting to get to this level. The real world equivalent to can i haz Joey presets and tact?

Additionally from what I gather setyouranchor is just starting to get a clientele going in his area. Why risk any time or money just to have someone else fuck you over? If his friend wants to learn than, sure no problem let him learn on his own. It's just the fact that he was too clueless or lazy to dedicate his own time to learning about audio engineering and wants/is insisting that setyouranchor, hooks him up with everything even though it's at a super inconvenient/annoying time.

 

[Mago]

+1 one everything Jarkko said.

my .2 about the mixing session thing:
If you get paid for the time you spend explaining for what you do then why not? If he doesnt have the dedication to experiment on his own or doesnt have talent then there wont be a risk for you to loose clientele, as long as you are the better mixing guy. And seeing that he seems to be the lazy guy the mixes wont magicaly turn into something great because you showed him some tricks.
Maybe you'll even have the advantage that the "not serious" clientele will be going to him and you can focus on the real musicians.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

It's not so much that his friend will be stealing "tricks" persay. It's just that his friend has not spent the time necessary to learn anything about recording and wants to get up to speed with the 4-5 years that setyouranchor has already dedicated to getting to get to this level. The real world equivalent to can i haz Joey presets and tact?

Additionally from what I gather setyouranchor is just starting to get a clientele going in his area. Why risk any time or money just to have someone else fuck you over? If his friend wants to learn than, sure no problem let him learn on his own. It's just the fact that he was too clueless or lazy to dedicate his own time to learning about audio engineering and wants/is insisting that setyouranchor, hooks him up with everything even though it's at a super inconvenient/annoying time.

I really don't see all the fuss. If it took setyouranchor four to five years to get where he's at now, how could this one dude get "up to speed" with that in one session?

Come on, guys. Studios have interns all the time. Sure, they learn a ton during the internships, and I'm probably trying pick up one more month-long internship in March, but the interns aren't exactly stealing the engineers' knowledge, are they? I can't help but feel like when you guys are talking about "learning on your own" and shit, that quite a bit of your know-how originates from this forum...

I know mine does. It's not like I came up with staged compression on my own.

 

[Trevoire520]

If this dude wants to attend the mix session then charge by the hour.

Dont worry about him stealing your tricks. Being a good engineer is less about knowing the tricks and much more about knowing when to apply them imo.

 

[setyouranchor]

Thanks guys. I'll speak to him about it and see what he says. I'm still not 100% about them coming round and watching the process. Like I mentioned earlier, he's a perfectionist so no doubt he'll be telling to "do this" and "do that". I'll explain that it will take longer with them being there watching my every move therefore they'll have to pay more.

 

[waltz mastering]

1) I'm gonna be mixing and mastering a local bands EP, BUT their two guitarists who have been recording their demos, want to come round and sit through the whole mixing and mastering process. Have any of you done this with bands? I'm just a little concerned as one of them was talking about wanting to set up his own studio next year. They're not exactly the best at production and I'm a little worried they're gonna be stealing "tips and tricks" so to speak

If you plan on making a profession out of engineering or producing, you probably should get used to whoever is involved in the music and/or paying your wage to want to sit in on the sessions for "their" music if they like. It's part of the gig in many ways.