Cymbal "Cluster" Micing VS. 2 Overheads?

[C_F_H_13]

Just curious what all you prefer to do. 95% of the tracking I do is for Rock/Pop records, and in these cases a good set of overheads is the main part of my drum sound. I'd also mic the hat and sometimes the ride, but rarely anything else....

However, it seems for metal that most people are doing individual cymbals or at least clusters of cymbals, and not really doing the traditional overheads.

What's your approach and why?

 

[Machinated]

I'm just doing a pair for OH, then hats, ride, sometimes china.....

reason? lack of more mics, although with these mics im fine for most of the stuff I work with. I can see a lot of people here being the same as me, due to the fact that there are so few big names round here with enough gear and experience to make the most of close micing all the cymbals.

from what i understand most people are using the close mic'ed tracks to supplement the main OH's, although i could be wrong......I also remember reading andy liked to mic his cymbals in pairs for seperation.

 

[if6was9]

I like to do a stereo pair- its the happiest I've been with overheads although I did record a drummer who had almost all his cymbals off to one side.I got him to move a few over for more interesting stereo spread but when I went to mix it I realised he moved over the few he barely hit so now I wish I'd close miced his cymbals so I could pan them out separately

I've done a few recordings where I miced a few clusters aswell as the stereo pair but once it came to mix time I ended up muting those channels and just going with the overheads

 

[beyond dead]

cash keeps me from using more than 4 mics for OH`s. But it seems to do the trick... for me

 

[C_F_H_13]

Yeah this particular project where I'm thinking of trying it out, there is no shortage of pre's or mics or inputs. I'm thinking of just doing my usual OH setup, and then adding the cymbal spot mics, and if I use em great...if not...I got my overheads.

I'm just always in awe of the cymbal sound on andy or colin's stuff and I'm assuming that most of that is with actual cymbal mics..

 

[beyond dead]

yeah, andy mics in pairs. but i think he close mics hi hat, ride and china.

 

[if6was9]

yeah if you look at the arch enemy drum recording he ddi there's alot going on for the cymbals.

 

[Machinated]

andy has said that he finds the cymbals hardest to do.....think he said he has them usually around 18 inches or so above the cymbals

not that my OH sounds are anywhere even close to the big guys, but one thing that holds true is that good cymbals really make a huge difference. if you have the chance try out as many as possible and settle for the ones that record nicest.

I'd be curious to see how it goes for you, and whether or not you use them in the final mix and if so, what effect it has.

 

[C_F_H_13]

not that my OH sounds are anywhere even close to the big guys, but one thing that holds true is that good cymbals really make a huge difference. if you have the chance try out as many as possible and settle for the ones that record nicest.

Amen to that. I had the drummer (band is out of town) send me about 30 pics of his kit and the types and sizes of all his cymbals....suffice to say some of it is going to get replaced with some of my collection.

Yeah I've been messing around with cymbals in my free time. biggest problem I have is if I point near the edge, I get a wierd wobble in the tone...if I pull it back enough to get rid of that sound...I get tons of bleed. I'm going to keep messing with it till I figure something out!

Anyone got any more tips for cymbals?

 

[egan.]

Yeah I've been messing around with cymbals in my free time. biggest problem I have is if I point near the edge, I get a wierd wobble in the tone...if I pull it back enough to get rid of that sound...I get tons of bleed. I'm going to keep messing with it till I figure something out!
Anyone got any more tips for cymbals?

The weird phase wobble thing sucks. I've tried a couple of things that avoid it and the bleed. The first is to do what you're talking about and pull back, but angle towards the outside edge of the kit as you pull up so that the outside edge of the cymbal is on axis, and the inside edge where the drummer hits is just within the pattern.
The other thing that works pretty well is to mic from underneath on center of the cymbal. There is no wobble on center and pretty much any bleed at that point can be high passed away.

 

[C_F_H_13]

The weird phase wobble thing sucks. I've tried a couple of things that avoid it and the bleed. The first is to do what you're talking about and pull back, but angle towards the outside edge of the kit as you pull up so that the outside edge of the cymbal is on axis, and the inside edge where the drummer hits is just within the pattern.
The other thing that works pretty well is to mic from underneath on center of the cymbal. There is no wobble on center and pretty much any bleed at that point can be high passed away.

Yeah all the guys who've come through our studio always do the cymbal micing dead center with a SD condenser (basically they point the mic right at the locking nut). I was reading somewhere that andy likes to go on the edge...so I thought I'd give it a whirl.

Good idea about the shifting of the mic though!

 

[Sloan]

paiste!!!

 

[if6was9]

Any of ye ever try a 3 mic overhead, one left, centre and right? I tried it at a recording before with a guy with alot of cymbals spread well around the kit, it was pretty cool and easy enough to set them correctly in phase, gave more control over the centre of the kit and kept the stereo image nicely

 

[greyskull]

sabian vault record very very very well.
cheap paiste cymbals are the worst sounding dustbin lids ever... if the drummer has these... either, make them buy some decent ones, buy some decent ones yourself, or knock him out

 

[C_F_H_13]

sabian vault record very very very well.
cheap paiste cymbals are the worst sounding dustbin lids ever... if the drummer has these... either, make them buy some decent ones, buy some decent ones yourself, or knock him out

hahaha yeah as I said earlier, I have my own collection of cymbals (paiste,zildjian,sabian) that I can pull from so I'm not too worried about quality sounds.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Good timing on this thread! I've been wondering about this myself, because in about a month I'm gonna be hitting the studio for my band's full length and I want to get the overheads done right! I've always heard about the 3:1 rule, but it seems like in metal, that applies less often (especially with close micing or cluster micing).

Anyway, in my specific case, here are a couple older pics of my drummer's setup, which I think is still basically identical these days:

As you can see, his main two crashes are pretty close together up front, and then the splash and splash/china contraption he made are both sitting lower, even closer together. The only further out stuff is the ride, china, and hat, which can all be close mic'd...so I am not entirely sure what the best methodology would be in capturing the four cymbals he's got up front. I'm really not thinking more than two mics is necessary, but the crashes seem to be a little close to obey the 3:1 rule if I'm going for a spaced pair... Any input?

 

[Metaltastic]

Ooh, looks sexy (but what the fuck do I know about drums )

 

[C_F_H_13]

Good timing on this thread! I've been wondering about this myself, because in about a month I'm gonna be hitting the studio for my band's full length and I want to get the overheads done right! I've always heard about the 3:1 rule, but it seems like in metal, that applies less often (especially with close micing or cluster micing).

Anyway, in my specific case, here are a couple older pics of my drummer's setup, which I think is still basically identical these days:

As you can see, his main two crashes are pretty close together up front, and then the splash and splash/china contraption he made are both sitting lower, even closer together. The only further out stuff is the ride, china, and hat, which can all be close mic'd...so I am not entirely sure what the best methodology would be in capturing the four cymbals he's got up front. I'm really not thinking more than two mics is necessary, but the crashes seem to be a little close to obey the 3:1 rule if I'm going for a spaced pair... Any input?

Funny you should post that, cause that's pretty much the exact same setup I have to work with. Only difference is I have a 3rd rack tom!

 

[egan.]

I love how far the cymbals are from the toms. You'll have lots of great options.
Forget the 3:1 rule. Just check your phase and if it's ok you're fine. That said there is no reason not to use a coincdent pair for those if it sounds better.

 

[Aaron Smith]

I love how far the cymbals are from the toms. You'll have lots of great options.
Forget the 3:1 rule. Just check your phase and if it's ok you're fine. That said there is no reason not to use a coincdent pair for those if it sounds better.

I've been on my drummer to make a habit of keeping the cymbals high, although he's never had them too low as long as I've been in a band with him! My only concern is the ride, because it's pretty low and about half way over the third tom, but he's willing to raise it and back it up a bit, so we should be cool.

I haven't actually done a coincident pair overhead job for probably about five years, but in this case, I think it may end up working better due to his cymbal layout. Does anyone have any opinions in regards to coincident vs. near-coincident? Near-coincident seems like it could work well in my case too if I aim for the outside edges of the cymbals like Egan was describing.

Anyway, here's the studio page where we're tracking drums:

http://fastbackstudios.net/

It's only about two miles from my house, and the dudes there are smart and cool and will be as involved or uninvolved as I want them to be, although they don't have any experience with metal whatsoever as far as I know. They have a great room, a big mic closet, and lots of outboard pres and EQs (excited to EQ the toms a bit on the way in), so it will be a really great place for the drums. Lots of overhead mic choices too!